Loading 38 special black powder cartridges.

[Dutchy Rodell]

I am just getting into CAS. I have my guns but have not shot in a match yet.  I have just loaded my first shotgun shells with 777 with a loading kit I got from Hammer Double.  What fun.  I have an interest in loading 38 special with 777 but have no experience, knowledge or equipment.  I am currently buying my 38 rounds from National Bullet (158 grain smokless at $8.00/50).  Can I reload 777  38 special rounds at this price or less/50?  What you be the leat expensive reloading equipment I would need?  Would the Lee hand reloader work?  Do the cases need to be trimmed if I always use them in the same gun (Rossi Puma)? Since I don't want to mold my own bullets, what bullets would you recommend?  What publications could you recommend for me for black powder/subs reloading?   Any other suggestions would be helpful.  My pistols are '58 Remmie cap and ball.  Thanks, Dutchy

[44caliberkid]

I would say given the cost of 777 powder, primers, and store bought bullets, you'll spend more than $8.00 per 50 loaded rounds.  The Lee handloaders are very labor intensive and you'll get tired of it in a hurry.  Better to start with a single stage Lee press.  You can get the whole starter kit for about $30.  Then do 100 rounds at a time, it'll take you about 2 hours after some practice.   Some factory ammo has gotten so cheap lately that reloading is actually more expensive.
  No, you won't have to trim cases.

[hellgate]

My SS Rossi carbine is very OAL (over all [cartridge] length) sensitive and the other (older blued Puma saddle ring) is not. Just this last week I worked up a 38SPL load that fed and fired well in both guns. The powder charge was 11.3 grs 777 (setting of 10 on my Redding powder measure) with a Lyman home cast 158gr RN bullet (358311) sized to .358 lubed with 50/50 beeswax & lard with an OAL of 1.51". Higher charges opened up the groups. The bullet is a fairly pointed RN.

Here's how I work up a load: Make 5 dummy cartridges with just the brass and the bullet to be used. Top priority is that the cartridges RELIABLY FEED through the gun. Prepare the brass as if you were going to charge them: Size, deprime, bell the mouths, and seat the bullets out beyond the crimping groove so they are a little longer than 38SPL specs. In fact, seating the bullets out to .357 lengths like 1.55"+ is fine as some Rossis like the 357 length cartridges. If you are gonna shoot lighter bullets (95-125gr) there might not be enough bullet to seat much farther out. Barely crimp the cases when you seat the bullets. Now load them into the magazine and rapidly rack them through the rifle. Write down on a note pad the OAL of the cartridges and record if there was rough or smooth feed or a hangup/stovepipe jam etc. Then seat the bullets a little deeper 1-2 thou and repeat. Keep seating a little deeper until you can see that you are above the first driving band (bullet is getting too deep). You should find a "sweet spot" OAL that racks smoothly & reliably. Sometimes the BULLET will not feed reliably and you need to go to a different shape shuch as RNFP, TC, or SWC. Now you are ready to vary your powder charges for the range work by shooting from a solid sandbag rest on a bench. For powder charging, put powder in a primed & belled case and eyeball where the powder will just meet the base of the seated bullet at your new found OAL. This is your starting load. Weigh it. Load up 5 with that charge and mark the cases or note which row they are in the box. Write it down. Add one grain to that charge and seat 5 more bullets. Repeat til you see that you are getting too little room in the case to easily seat the bullet. I would not put more than 13 grs in the 38SPL. The .357 will go up to about 16grs (weighed) but the accurate load will be less than a maximum charge. My 158gr SWC bullets like an OAL of 1.55" and 15grs (weighed) of 777 in both of my Rossis. You should end up with 3 or 4 levels of powder charge for each OAL. Go the the shooting range and from a sandbag rest shoot for groups at 25 yards (or 50yds if you want to walk farther). At 25 yards you'll see which loads are better than others. I use a 6 bull BP target but you can staple 5 or 6 small 6" paper plates onto a cardboard backing. Just be sure to label them or record on a notebook which load was fired at which bull. I have a notebook on the shooting bench where I write which load was fired at which bull and then I lable the target BEFORE I pull it from the cardboard backing.

Once you get the sweet spot OAL and the most accurate charge you won't have any excuses for missing.

[knucklehead]

I am just getting into CAS. I have my guns but have not shot in a match yet.  I have just loaded my first shotgun shells with 777 with a loading kit I got from Hammer Double.  What fun.  I have an interest in loading 38 special with 777 but have no experience, knowledge or equipment.  I am currently buying my 38 rounds from National Bullet (158 grain smokless at $8.00/50).  Can I reload 777  38 special rounds at this price or less/50?  What you be the leat expensive reloading equipment I would need?  Would the Lee hand reloader work?  Do the cases need to be trimmed if I always use them in the same gun (Rossi Puma)? Since I don't want to mold my own bullets, what bullets would you recommend?  What publications could you recommend for me for black powder/subs reloading?   Any other suggestions would be helpful.  My pistols are '58 Remmie cap and ball.  Thanks, Dutchy

I use a rcsbs rock chucker single stage press with rcbs carbide 38/357 dies.
I use the 1.0 lee dipper to load my .38 shells with 2f 777 powder top it off with meister 158 grain round nose bullet.
I use the standard winchester small pistol primer.
I don't have any problems with this load knocking down knock down targets in my ruger pistols.
I use a 45 colt for rifle.

I feel that handloading blackpowder loads for cowboy shooting is cheaper than ordering from the online sourcs for black powder loaded shells.

I have a shell case trimer but it has'nt been out of the box in 20 years. I haven't had the need to use it on my cowboy ammo.

hope this helps a little

[Tommy tornado]

It also gets cheaper as you reuse your brass.  The first time it is close to factory costs, but then all you need to replace is bullet, powder, and primer.  You can further reduce costs by casting your own bullets from wheel weights.

I started with a rock chucker and have recently switched to the lee classic rotary press.  It is excellent.

[h c ramrod]

Well i got to tell yah ,
I just got done loadin 600 rounds of 38 spel with 777  with a lee loadmaster progressive loader using the lee disc powder measure
dropping 11 grains by scale weight ova a 125 lead tc style bullett , there a great load, and very acurate.
I dont have any problem usin the progressive press with the disc powder measure  I get a live round about every 3 seconds
yah have a lot more time to shoot when you use the progressive..........
also like to mention that the buletts are  hard cast with the standard lube .........

[Dutchy Rodell]

Do you need to use a wad between the powder and the bullet and how do you know how deep to seat the bullet?  Dutchy

[44caliberkid]

No wad needed for 777 (or most handgun ammo either) and seat the bullet up to the crimp groove.  One thing about this thread that bothers me is that it is titled "Loading 38 special black powder cartridges." yet you state you are intereste in using 777.  777 is not black powder and essentially is loaded just like smokeless, same lubes, etc.  It has different characteristics in loading and firing.  I used some 777 in 38 Special to get rid of some hardcast, pre-lubed bullets made by Hornady.  A case full up to the base of the bullet was pretty hot and showed good accuracy.   None of the practices used to load and shoot real black powder need apply.

[Dutchy Rodell]

I started this thread by saying I have no experience, no knowledge and no equipment.  If there is a difference in loading 777 and black powder I don't know what it is since my gun store carries only 777 and pyrodex.  I tried Pyrodex pellets and didn't like them.  I switched to 777.  I bought a shotgun loading kit from Hammer Double and have loaded brassshotgun shells with 777.   That seemed simple enough so I thought about loading 38s for my lever action.  I'm still a novie and have lots of questions.  If I load 777 cartridges for the rifle, can there be an air space between the powder and bullet?   Dutchy

[SFT]

I started this thread by saying I have no experience, no knowledge and no equipment.  If there is a difference in loading 777 and black powder I don't know what it is since my gun store carries only 777 and pyrodex.  I tried Pyrodex pellets and didn't like them.  I switched to 777.  I bought a shotgun loading kit from Hammer Double and have loaded brassshotgun shells with 777.   That seemed simple enough so I thought about loading 38s for my lever action.  I'm still a novie and have lots of questions.  If I load 777 cartridges for the rifle, can there be an air space between the powder and bullet?   Dutchy

Here's a good link for figuring out loads; http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=34384
Also PM's you on various loads using 777.
Hope this works for you.

[knucklehead]

I started this thread by saying I have no experience, no knowledge and no equipment.  If there is a difference in loading 777 and black powder I don't know what it is since my gun store carries only 777 and pyrodex.  I tried Pyrodex pellets and didn't like them.  I switched to 777.  I bought a shotgun loading kit from Hammer Double and have loaded brassshotgun shells with 777.   That seemed simple enough so I thought about loading 38s for my lever action.  I'm still a novie and have lots of questions.  If I load 777 cartridges for the rifle, can there be an air space between the powder and bullet?   Dutchy

Tripple Seven is basicly the same as real black powderr, in the sense that you don't have any air space in the shell between bullet and powder.
You need to fill up the case till the bullet will seat onto the powder.

Dutchy Rodell, I suggest you click on the following links. these two websites will help you understand blackpowder loading better.

http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html
http://www.davidscottharper.com/shoot/BP_for_CAS.htm

[Dutchy Rodell]

Knucklehead: Thanks for the website addresses.  I found the material on those sites extremely helpful.   Also thanks to all who replied.    Dutchy