Leathersmiths.....Need Some Assistance

[Forty Rod]

Okay,  I'm gonna 'fess up:  I don't know what the heck I'm doing.  I figured I might be able to get some help here.

Back in about 1900...give or take a few years...my maternal grandfather went on a mission to Switzerland for the Mormon church.  He died many years before I was born (1929) and the only thing I have of his is a little desk knife/letter opener marked A.W.Jp over the figure of a woman from the knees up, which is over the word Solingen.  Overall length was 5-1/2" and the blade was broken at some point and is now almost 1/4' shorter.  There is a round stag handle capped with a silver cap shaped like the hat worn by Johnny, the kid who used to yell out "Call for Philllllip Morrrrris".  There used to be a black or very dark brown sheath with a silver tip and a silvet throat...long since gone.  It had no loop, thong, nor any other way to fastem it to a belt.

An almost identical little knive was being sold here in SoCal about 1978-1980.  Haven't seen any since then.

I think grandpa would like for the knife to be used, and it's the right size for carrying in a neck sheath.

I have no idea what a sheath looks like, no pattern to copy, no tools excedt a pocket knife and an X-Acto set, and very few skills.  Oh yeah:  I don't have very much money, either.

I'd like to have a sheath with some beadwork on the upper half.  I can do the beading myslf, but have no clue how to add a piece of buckskin (or something similar) to the sheath to carry the beading.  I'd also like a thin 1/2" neck strap with beads instead of a thong.

I have plenty of 3/16" thick leather that I like the color and texture of...I have an old mountain man's shooting bag made from the same leather...and a piece of some leather that matches but is much thinner if I want to add fringe.

Pleas give me your thoughts on this.

Thanks.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I split this off so it would have its own thread. OK, leathersmiths, who can to help him out?

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Here's a photo of 40's knife he emailed me to reduce and post for him. Cool little knife.

[Forty Rod]

Thanks, Will.  And thanks to litl rooster, too.

[Ozark Tracker]

Fourty, a neck sheath is hard to find any pictures of.  I had seen this one,listed as a neck sheath,  thought it might give you some more ideas,  good luck

[Doc Neeley]

This is my wife's neck knife.

[Forty Rod]

How secure are these?  Looks like a good way to lose a knife if you're not real careful.

[Doc Neeley]

Note the leather thong loop. It goes over the handle to keep the knife from inadvertantly falling out. It's been carried at reenactments many many times.

[knucklehead]

check out the following forum:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/

I have seen posts about neck knifes on this website. the website is used mostly by reenactors in the time periods 1800s to 1900s.
neck knifes were used alot in that time period so you should find some information/pics on that website.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Forty Rod;  Your knife is shaped like the typical germanic hunting knife, only smaller .  They were carried in a narrow pocket of a hunters "Lederhosen" (leather knee britches) The sheath only served to cover the blade in the pocket.  Mine is 9.5" long and marked withe the Henkels twins.

[Brazos Jack]

Hey Rod . . . . I got something for you. I'll holler at you on the Emule side with some particulars.

[Forty Rod]

THAT'S IT!!!

The one on the left really strikes my fancy (Have you ever had your fancy struck?  Hurts like blazes.) and looks simple enough even I could do it.  I could even do the design in beads instead of quills, if it isn't a proprietary design.

Any idea what tools I'd need?

[Brazos Jack]

Dang! I sent you the pattern for the one one right. But, I'll get the other one made and sent pronto.

Ummm, you need a scratch awl, stabbing awl, some size 1 harness needles and thread . . . . oh yeah, and a knife.

[Forty Rod]

I'll go by the hobby shop tomorrow...Tandy moved out about six years ago and Michaels will have to do.

Thanks again.

[Nolan Sackett]

Forty Rod - here's a sort of step by step montage. It shows how I did the quillworked cuff (you can replace with beadwork of course). The rawhide liner can be easily replaced with one from veg tan rather than rahide, and for a neck sheath you can eliminate the sash flap.


Step 1) - After doing the research (IMO an important step to get it "right") I always do a sketch to put my thoughts/ideas into some semblance of order - with quill and/or beadwork I usually work out a color scheme as well. This is only a general idea at this time - as you'll see the design wasn't "written in stone" - the whole thing will often change and/or be adapted as I go along.

   

Step 2) The sheath liner is double thickness elk rawhide - in this case I doubled the liner since one thickness wasn't stiff enough for the size blade. The inner liner is a standard wrap around pouch sheath with a welt sewn into place along the cutting edge using well waxed/rosined linen thread. It also has a piece of braintan buckskin sewn in at the top as liner for the handle and to which the outside braintan cover will be sewn - something I do to make it a "neater" package and to give it a bit more "grip" on the handle.
Rawhide must be worked wet, but not too wet, something only working with it will you learn - it's a bit of a hassle, but well worth the effort. Once the liner was sewn I protected the blade and ferrule from the moisture and then clamped a couple of boards over the blade until the liner was almost dry. I then took the boards off and let it dry completely. Clamping it between the boards isn't absolutely necessary - but if you don't use them you need to keep a close eye on it as it dries so that it doesn't warp - let it air dry only! Once the inner liner was dry I sealed it with varnish - I use my own home made traditional linseed oil & rosin based varnish - other period type sealers that can be used are spar varnish or a thin coat or two of hide glue. Then I sewed a second piece of rawhide over the first - I whip stitched it along the outer edge and let it air dry with the knife still in the sheath to maintain the form. Once dry I sealed this piece as well.

   

In the back ground are most of the materials I planned on using: at the top is a hunk of elk sinew for sewing (I also used linen and hemp thread since the sinew I had on hand wasn't teh best quality and didn't make enough good thread as I wanted), the porcupine quills and antique pound beads (about 8/0 size), and the brain tan buckskin dyed with walnut hull dye - the bottom portion almost black for the cuff and the rest a lighter color. 

3) Here is the cuff (at top), cover, and sash flap (made of buffalo rawhide) all quilled and beaded. The beads on the cuff and sash flap are attached with sinew - on the far left are a couple of sinew threads. Serendipitously the sinew on the back side of the flap makes it sort of rough/sticky which will help with retention on the wool sash. With this style sheath the body of the sheath is worn under the sash with the falp on the outside. The quills and beads on the cover were sewn on using hemp thread.
For info on how-to bead and quill, a good starting place is www.nativetech.org, This along with several books available will teach you waht you need to know. There are several techniques for both beading and quillwork and my advice is to study as many sources as possible and then practice, practice, practice.....
When you compare this picture to the original sketch, you can see I changed both the overall pattern and quill colors somewhat. The pattern changed since the sheath wound up being wider than originally sketched (a not unusual circumstance) and the colors changed since I didn't get the natural dyed green/blue I wanted.

   

4 & 5) Here are front and back views of the cover and sash flap sewn onto the liner - the cover is sewn along the edge with a double whip stitch - a whip stitch was the stitch most commonly used by the Indians - I like to use a double stitch as it gives a nice look, but also makes it stronger and longer lasting since with the whip stitch the threads are exposed to wear - although in this case the beaded edge helps protect the thread from wear. Additional decoration is two hand made brass cones stuffed with buffalo hair. They are attached to the sheath with linen thread running through some larger antique pound beads and a couple of old copper beads. The buckskin cover is sealed with a mixture of bear oil, beeswax, and pine rosin, which also helps protect the quills.
 



here's the finished product.....


I'm not a big fan of neck sheaths (or anything else hanging around my neck - I was probably hung in a prvious life!) but I have made a couple here's one - it's braintan deer over a rawhide liner.......



Anyway hope this helps.........

[Forty Rod]

Thanks, Nolan.  If this neck sheath comes out okay I'd like to "move up" to a belt sheath for my Linder Bowie.  Looks like I'm getting a good start on a bunch of future projects.

Just saw a solution to edge beading in one of the pics, too...do it before I fold and sew the thing shut.

[Forty Rod]

Got the first one, Jack.  Thanks.  I'll use it later for another project.

[Brazos Jack]

If'n ya need some 6 ounce veg tan and some elk hide, holler at me. I know then fancy artsy stores ain't got any.

[Forty Rod]

Thanks.  I have enough for this project, but I'll keep it in mind if I decide to make the larger sheath for my Booooie knife.

[Springfield Slim]

If Michael's don't have waht you need, Tandy is now online with everything . With a knife like yours that is very top heavy I would make some sort of handle clamp, using snaps, laces, something. I made a neck sheath for someone who wanted it to look just like the one Wild Bill wore on "Deadwood". His fit into the sheath further so no danger of falling out. http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c262/mwhyte123/IMG00001-2.jpg