Nagant Pistol

[Major Matt Lewis]

Folks,

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the 1895 Nagant Pistol NCOWS Legal AND small enough to be a pocket pistol?

[St. George]

Not according to the Tally Book.

The Model 1895 Nagant is a full-sized Service Pistol - proprietary to the Imperial Russian Army and almost unseen in the West until after WWII.

Not the American West, either.

Russia was were always secretive about her ordnance - even though much of it came from other European designs - the Nagant being no exception, being designed by the Belgians, Emile and Leon Nagant - and she always had a 'wall' between herself and the outside world - far earlier than the term 'Iron Curtain' was ever coined.

It fired an unusual round that was pretty much impossible to find beyond Russia's borders and though it says 'Model 1895' and some folks have seized on it as far as 'period' goes - no proof that any ever made it to this side of the pond during the Frontier Era seems to be extant.

Soviet Russia didn't export any to her satellite nations until long after the 'Great Patriotic War', and they weren't all that well thought of by the intended recipients, as no one wanted them, when they could also get the Tokarev - a far more modern piece.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Major Matt Lewis]

THANKS st. George.  I have not got my new Talley Book Yet.  Looks like I will have to break down and get my 1901 Army fixed if I want to have an NCOWS legal DA  without buying a new gun.   I know that Trap has Approved that for use.

[St. George]

If you'd rather wait on fixing the Model 1901, so that you 'can' buy a new revolver - look at the various models of the post-1889 Smith & Wessons.

In my experience - they lock tighter and have a smoother 'long' action, where the Colt's double-action system of the time is somewhat stiff.

Makes no difference to me, since I shoot any double-action revolver or automatic in single-action mode, since that way - my grip doesn't change.

At any rate - when choosing a revolver - pick one that locks up tight when in battery.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Trap]

 Just for the record; I cannot OK a firearm for use in NCOWS. That must be done by the Congress.     jt

[Major Matt Lewis]

OK,

The record is straight.  But the 1901 is still good to go right?

[Books OToole]

I believe that is correct.  The last Congress approved the 1892, 1894,1895,1896,1901 & 1903 Colts, because it takes an expert to tell them apart.  And then they have to be disassembled.  In fact, Haven's book on Colt Firearms (1940) does not differentiate the variations.

Books

[St. George]

Yes.

The line of 1889, '92, '94,'95, '96, '01 and '03 markedly resemble one another - the existing 'changes' being internal and applicable patent information added to the barrel.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Grizzle Bear]

Actually, Rich, you could use the pistol, providing you were wearing the uniform of a Tsarist Russian General!



Grizzle Bear

[Major Matt Lewis]

LOL!  The cost of the Uniform would far out weigh the cost of buying or fixing an approved DA.  Plus I have proof that the Arch Duke of Russia came and visited on a hunting trip.  Apparently he was being hosted by a group of Indians.  I hear he got in trouble with the feds because he paid money to kill an actual real life American Indian.  The Indian proved to be a bit too elusive....So, with this evidence, it is plausible that he may have had a Nagant.

[St. George]

Doubtful, that - since he was enamored with the American Frontier, and the Nagant wasn't even an idea.

"During the visit of the Grand Duke Alexis of Russia, to the United States, the imperial party were escorted to the plains, and enjoyed the excitement of a buffalo hunt, over the western prairies.

As the only representative of the great Russian nation, he has seen the novelty of military life on the frontier; shaken hands with partially tamed Indian warriors, and smoked the pipe of peace in ancient style.

Among the company were Buffalo Bill, a noble son of the wild West, and Generals Sheridan and Custer.

The red men appeared in a grand pow-wow and war-dance, and indulged in arrow practice for his particular benefit.

The party started from Camp Alexis, Willow Creek, Nebraska, in January 1872.

For the hunt,  the Duke's dress consisted of jacket and trowsers of heavy gray cloth, trimmed with green, the buttons bearing the Imperial Russian coat-of-arms; he wore his boots outside his trowsers; his cap was an Astrakhan turban, with cloth top; he carried a Russian hunting knife, and an American revolver recently presented to him, and bearing the coat-of-arms of the United States and Russia on the handle."

From: 'Your Guide Book to the Pacific Railroad, 1879'

(The revolver was most likely a Colt, since there are several examples of Colt presentation guns at the Hermitage Museum.)

They put on quite a show for the 19-year-old Grand Duke - including a wild stagecoach ride, with Buffalo Bill handling the ribbons.


Vaya,

Scouts out!

[Books OToole]

LOL!  The cost of the Uniform would far out weigh the cost of buying or fixing an approved DA.  Plus I have proof that the Arch Duke of Russia came and visited on a hunting trip.  Apparently he was being hosted by a group of Indians.  I hear he got in trouble with the feds because he paid money to kill an actual real life American Indian.  The Indian proved to be a bit too elusive....So, with this evidence, it is plausible that he may have had a Nagant.

Nice theory but the Grand Duke carried a Smith & Wesson*. (Single Action).  The out-fit that St. George described would be pretty neat.

Books




* I don't know how many Nagants were manufactured, but the Russian Government bought over 100,000 S & Ws.

[Major Matt Lewis]

   Nobody is getting the reference to the movie Maverick I take it....

[St. George]

Truth of the matter is that Grand Duke Alexis' hunt - as related by Buffalo Bill - is more entertaining.

There was some trepidation about giving Spotted tail a loaded weapon - since no one was really certain if he'd shoot a buffalo or the Grand Duke.

From Buffalo Bill's autobiography:

"Spotted Tail had permission from the Government to hunt buffalo, a privilege that could not be granted to Indians indiscriminately, as it involved the right to carry and use firearms. You couldn't always be sure just what kind of game an Indian might select when you gave him a rifle. It might be buffalo, or it might be a white man. But Spotted Tail was safe and sane. Hence the trust that was reposed in him."

Isn't real life better than the movies?

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Books OToole]

  Nobody is getting the reference to the movie Maverick I take it....

I once made a reference to Zoro to one of, if not the, formost authorities on Imperial Spain, and he did not have a clue what I was talking about.

We assumed you were talking serious history; we were.  

And by the way the Nagant revolver was originally manufactured in Belgium by Pieper and adopted by the Russians in 1895*. (This is long after the real and fictional Dukes visited the U.S.)

Books



* From the 9th Edition of Small Arms of the World by Smith. (Available at Anastasia's Books for $ 20.00)

[Montana Slim]

THANKS st. George.  I have not got my new Talley Book Yet.  Looks like I will have to break down and get my 1901 Army fixed if I want to have an NCOWS legal DA  without buying a new gun.   I know that Trap has Approved that for use.

Major,

What kind of "fixing" does the 1901 require?
I may be able to share some tips.

Slim

[Major Matt Lewis]

Slim,

The cylander does not always advance when pulling the trigger.  I have observed this in single and double action mode?

[St. George]

Most likely - you're looking at well-aged and very tired springs.

Replacing those should make it work more readily and lock up tighter.

Pretty much every old gun benefits greatly from spring replacement and a really thorough cleaning.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Samuel Kiteman Cody]

Everybody beat me to the punch. just to add according to "A Gallery of Dudes" by Marshall Sprague
It states Grand Duke Alexis killed one of his Buffalo using one of his engraved "forty four revolvers which Mr. Wesson of Smith and Wesson had given him in Massachusetts. There is also a nice engraving in the Denver Public Library Western Collection that recreates the moment. This was from a recollection of Buffalo Bill.

I looked seriously at the Nagants sold by Southern Ohio until I did not see it in "the list". I think the only way it could have made it would have been as a presentation to the Army officers who observed the Russo-Japanese war. Even then, the guns would likely have been engraved and plated in gold.

Cheers

Sam Cody

[St. George]

There's a bit of controversy about the Grand Duke's handgun proficiency - as related here:

McCook Daily Gazette, Nebraska Centennial Edition 1867-1967

"Cody, Custer and the Duke rode out ahead to a small herd kept from wandering by spotted Tail's Sioux.
Cody pointed out a choice bull and the Duke charged.
Just at the last moment he reined in, and when Cody came riding up, the flustered Duke blubbered out that "You have drilled me so hard, I have a blank mind."

Swallowing a laugh, Bill told the Duke to let old Buckskin Joe do the hunting.
All Alexis would have to do was shoot.
Buckskin Joe played his roll perfectly, putting the Duke alongside a prize specimen.
Alexis pulled out his .44 revolver and blasted away six times as bull, Joe and the Duke charged together across the plains.

It seemed impossible but Alexis missed all six shots.

Cody raced forward with his rifle, the famed Lucretia Borgia, and gave it to the still flustered Duke. The Russian fired, started to reload, then looked back and discovered his first shot had been a killer.
He hauled back on the reins, jumped off Joe, raced for the beast, and cut off his tail.
Then, sitting square on the back of the buffalo, "He let go with a series of howls and gurgles like the death song of all the fog horns and calliopes ever born, " at least that is the way Cody described it."


Those Nagants were powerful and effective in their day - much-loved by the NKVD (fore-runner to the KGB - same mind-set), as the cream of the Polish Army's officer corps found out in the Katyn Forest...

A non-Tsarist Impression using one would necessitate a truly interesting tale as provenance - perhaps something along the lines of fleeing the wolves chasing the sleigh racing across the frozen Bering Strait, carrying only a trusty Nagant and fifteen cases of its proprietary ammunition for protection, and suddenly finding yourself in Nome, and wearing clothing made of wolf pelts...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!