Starr M 1858 DA/SA Revolver by Pietta

[Long Johns Wolf]

Howdy to the campfire,
A couple of years back I was able to purchase above but never fired it. Well, it is about time. Would you cowgirls and cowboys have any suggestions regarding recommended blackpowder loads, the real stuff no substitutes?
And one other thought: I am a conversion trip, so to speak. Were there ever (factory) cartridge conversions of the Starr C&B pistol made?
Are there any gunsmiths out there having converted the Pietta Starr to shoot like .45 Colt?
Has any of you shooters experience with a converted Pietta Starr revolver that she/he would care to share?
Thank you,
Bootsie

[Tommy tornado]

I have one that was worked on by a famous N-SSA gunsmith named Ray Romano.  He stated that he would never work on another again due the the piece in question being a mechanical nightmare to tune.  That being said mine shoots great!   I have a single action.  Usually stick with .454 balls and about 25 to 30 grains of 3fffg Goex.  I love the grip.  From what I have heard the Double action model works better than the single action.  Have not seen any cartridge conversions by R&D or Krist because of the lack of popularity for this gun (I could be wrong).  I have seen conversions made by Robert Milington.  He is very expensive.  http://www.armsportllc.com/index.htm

[Long Johns Wolf]

Thanks for the helpful advice, Tornado.
After having further studied the tricky action of this DA/SA model in the meantime I am surprised that so many were manufactured and probably used during the Civil War and thereafter. What I can say is that this German cowboy used to Colt and Remington kind of actions had his problems getting used to
1. pre-cocking the hammer with the trigger
2. thumbing hammer into full cock position
3. firing in conventional single action mode
But I like the grip, too!
Good news #1: capping is easy and firing positiv. The way the pistol is constructed spend caps are kind of "automatically" removed from the nipples when the cylinder is turned to the next chamber.
Good news #2: my pistol seems to be quality manufactured by the Pietta people and functions reliably. But since this 3-stage-action needs so much "getting used to" I will not have it converted to fire cartridges like the one on Bob Millington's homepage.
Bootsie

[Fox Creek Kid]

Bootsie, I'm afraid I have to agree w/ Tommy Tornado here as I owned a Starr SA and dumped it faster than a lousy lover!    I have a friend who has an original and he explained to me the "intricacies" of this pistol. The biggest problem was the cylinder "vapor lock" out of nowhere. Locked up tighter than Dick's hatband. I had to unlock the frame screw & "right" the cylinder. For style it's a 10. For function it's a POS IMHO. 

[Long Johns Wolf]

Fox Creek Kid & Tornado: I appreciate your comments and I am in agreement regarding the "unusual" function of the beast compared to more conventional pistols like Colts, Remingtons and Schofields (regarding the latter you will have to twist my arm a bit).
I certainly don't like this kind of action for a match pistol but it's uniquely fascinating. My biggest problem so far was that I accidentally dropped the cylinder on the concrete when dissassembling the revolver for cleaning...
However, I cannot complain about reliability, so far. Suggesting a compromise I will give it another workout today at below freezing temps and let you know how it went.
Bootsie

[Grizzle Bear]

I now have TWO of the DA Starr's, so I can shoot them Gunfighter style.  (We can do this in NCOWS!)  I think they're great, once you put in a little "trigger time" and get to know them.  The design of the cylinder is such that you can shoot them all day without fouling out.  The trigger pull, although heavy, is fairly smooth, and they "stack" well, allowing you to get a final sight alignment before that last little squeeze.  At the end of the day, they clean up easy.  They are hard to cap, so I cut out the recoil shield so a snail type capper would fit.  One of these days I'll work up the nerve to try and do a trigger job on them, but for now I am quite happy with them.

Grizzle Bear

(Who likes strange and unusual guns!)

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Sorry to come by this post so late, but I just purchased an original Starr DA Conversion. It needs some TLC, a hand for sure, and some work on the cylinder as someone tried , unsuccessfully, to convert it to 45LC.

It has a new at time of conversion cylinder that has RF notches in the cylinder and only 6 stops(reason I know it's not a cut down BP cylinder). I believe it was Converted to 46 R.F. first, then converted to 44C.F. later. I'll have this gun in my possession tomorrow, Monday 03-05-07 so I'll know more about it.

[Long Johns Wolf]

Howdy Halfway Creek Charlie. Congrats and please share with us what you can find out. More pice of the conversion plate, if possible. Are your going to shoot it?
Bootsie

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Why, YES I AM
Just as soon as I get it repaired. The DA strut is too short to full cock the hammer and the hand doesn't advance the cylinder. I got it this morning. I will be taking pictures of this conversion and the parts. the recoil shield has a firing pin in it and is held onto the frame by 2 machine screws. The notches I thought were Rf notches turned out to be Starr's Double Lock on full cock notches. the trigger locks the cylinder in place as well as the bolt..a double lock. It has always been a C.F conversion and I believe my 44 Rem/Colt C.F's will work in it as they are loaded. The cylindr will have to be repaired(relined and re machined for the 44 Rem/Colt C.F. cartridge, but that is just bringing it back to what it was when converted. It has all the Sub Inspector markings on it and 2 faint cartouchjes on the Grip. It has a lot of old blue  turing to patina and is overall very good condition. Bore is fantastic.
Pictures to follow. This type of conversion could be done to the Pietta Starr DA or SA.

[Dalton Masterson]

Love that original! Was it on Gunbroker a bit back? Saw one, but havent been back to see if it sold.

I have 2 Pietta SAs, and love them. I am going to try to shoot them this next weekend for a bit in a match. I have shot one, but the other one is fairly stiff yet. I have asked and asked on TOB about people with Starrs, and usually only get 1 response. Glad to see ya all here. I had a set of Poly ivory grips made for mine in antique ivory. Look pretty good.
What kind of loads are you gents using? I feel comfortable with 40gr APP and a .454 ball. Recoil is almost nonexistant. Would like to do gunfighter with them sometime.
I noticed on the cylinder lockup problem, once you start to cock them, cock them, dont stop. Seems to work on mine. DM

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Dalton,

Haven't been able to work up a load in mine as I just got it today and it has some problems. Yes it was the one on GB. Thought it was worth the money. It appears to have an anchor below the S/N on the front frame. It does have several Sub Inspectors marks and two barely readable cartouches.


I walked out behind the house this morning after I checked her over. Opened her up and loaded one 44 Rem/Colt C.F. in her (had to hand turn the cylinder) turned it up the battery position Thumb cocked her and shot her first 44 Rem C.F. in a long time. Hit where I was aiming or very close. So it shoots my 44 Rem. 28 Grn BP with a 248 Grn heeled, outside lubed bullets fine.

It needs a new hand and possibly a new DA Strut as the DA only brings the hammer back about halfway or less and doesn't turn the cylinder. Luckily, I can sleeve the cylinder and bring her back. There is a gunsmith close to me that will work on Starrs, so I am going to call on him. I found him in the reviews of the Starr DA at Dixie Gun Works.

Also I found that this has always been a C.F. conversion., and most likely 44 C.F. as the notches in the rear of the cylinder are the Starr "Double Lock Up at firing" Notches. It has a seperate recoil shiled with an arbor attached, held to the original recoil shield with 2 machine screws and the firing pin is held in by recoil shield placement in the frame. Firing pin has a spring under it, and the back of the pin is stepped to fit in the frame and allow the hamer to hit the top portion of it. Pretty ingenious set up.

I'm really happy with it so far.

[Long Johns Wolf]

My standard load in .44 C&B revolvers is 22 gr of blackpowder, a waxed wad (made from my wifes old hats plus candle wax), grit and a .454 round ball (no grease needed). I use RWS caps. In my Pietta SA/DA that brings POA and POI about together with reasonable accuracy.
Bootsie

[Dalton Masterson]

Heres a link to reproduction parts for original Starrs if you need some. DM
http://www.partsforantiqueguns.com/starrreparts.html

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

I emailed Jack before I got the gun home. He isn't too thrilled about Starr Conversions. Seems they all had trouble. Trouble with the pawl area and the hand. He doesn't want to help, but I can buy parts there. He worked on one and said he'd never work on another one. Burst my bubble fer sure.
I will buy his Starr revolver book though.
I wonder how close the Pietta Starr DA internal parts are to the originals?

I worked on the hamd today and need a better hand spring, I may make one.  The one in it worked for a minute, but if you try to thumb cock the DA without depressing the trigger a bit it jams the hand and the pawl of the cylinder and bends the spring. Mine worked well for two tries.
This is a learning experiment for me. I know Remingtons inside out and backwards and can dis-assemble one almost blind folded...not the Starr...Yet.

The hand itself is fixed but the weak/bent spring allows the hand to rotate back against the frame and miss the pawl. I'll get it fixed. Also the DA strut is too short to allow the hammer to reach full cock.
when the hand spring works, I can depress the trigger a bit and VOILA! the cylinder turns when I cock the hammer manually. So I'm close, but no cigar ....yet!

I need some info on the DA's. Does the DA move the hammer back to the fullcock position then pulling further on the trigger, ingage the secondary trigger?? Or does it just move far enough to rotate the cylinder to battery then go?? Inquiring minds want to know. Mine moves the hammer about a half inch and releases it, not enough movement to advance the cylinder into battery.

[Dalton Masterson]

I think the cylinder and hammer will go to full battery, then a little more trigger will fire it. COuld be wrong tho, never played with a DA. I think I have had my SA apart twice, and the other one never. Would like to go in and explore/polish. Was scared to before due to finding parts if I screw up.
We need a STARR club! Dm

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Well I figure to be a STARR GURU if I can get this old girl rolling again. I'm looking into a redesigned hand (rear of) and spring, one that will follow the contour of the frame behind the hand. If I can get this old girl working then I might, build a new DA Conversion. The recoil shield/arbor will be easy to duplictate and install. But that idea is a ways down the road. First thing is to get the old girl rolling. The guy I got her from told me in an email that if I could get her rolling I would be a better man than he....I love a challange! I have to study the DA action to see where this needs to go.

[Dalton Masterson]

Be sure to keep us posted!! Good luck. DM Heres a pic of my pair.

[Dutchman Dick]

I need some info on the DA's. Does the DA move the hammer back to the fullcock position then pulling further on the trigger, ingage the secondary trigger?? Or does it just move far enough to rotate the cylinder to battery then go?? Inquiring minds want to know. Mine moves the hammer about a half inch and releases it, not enough movement to advance the cylinder into battery.

I just bought one of the Starr DA's from Dixie Gunworks - had to send it back for exchange, though, as it has multiple defects (must have been a "Friday gun"). The one they are sending me has been THOROUGHLY tested for mechanical problems, including making certain that it will reliably pop caps (some of these apparently have weak mainsprings). Besides being a neat gun in its own right, I have wanted a Starr for a long time, as I believe E.T. Starr (the gun's inventor) may have been a distant relative of mine (on my mother's father's side).

All that being said, as to the function of the Starr DA, the slider on the back of the cocking lever, when in the "down" position, only allows the cocking lever (forward "trigger") to come back far enough to cock the hammer and rotate the cylinder. The slider stops any further rearward movement. When the slider is in the "up" position, the cocking lever can travel backwards far enough to trip the firing trigger (similar to the old, cheap H&R and similar revolvers with the sear exposed inside the trigger guard, except that IIRC those guns didn't need the sear for D-A firing, just for S-A).

Which kind of makes me wonder why SASS rules don't conditionally allow the Starr DA revolvers. It's pretty obvious when someone is firing them in single-action mode, since you have to take your finger off the cocking lever and reposition it onto the firing trigger. All you have to do is watch, and stage-disqualify anybody caught "cheating".......