45 SPC.

[Peddler Parsons]

I went to the range today to test my 45 cowboy spc.
pistols - 58 Remington with 45 conv. cyl. 8inch barrels
powder - APP 18 grains
bullet - 180 grain
temp 60,  wind calm , distance to crony 8', distance to target 10 yards
first test  10 shot string
Average velocity - 655
extreme spread - 40
average deviation - 9

2nd test
average velocity  660
extreme spead 30
average deviation  6

test three and four  was with 200 grain bullets same guns
average velocity 700
extreme spread  22
average deviation 5

four
average volocity 698
extreme spread  21
average deviation  5

As soon as I use the 180 I have I will use the 200 grain only  Note piont of aim and point of impack was also better with the 200 (tighter group) 

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Double P,

That's rite close to my experience with the 200 grain J/P 45-200 RNFP mold.  This afternoon I got very fine data in the 620 fps range with that bullet and the Cowboy 45 Special brass loaded with 1.3cc of FFFg.

I've found that I prefer the lil EPP-UG 150 grain bullet with the same loading of 1.3cc FFFg for around 845 fps.  Recoil is about the same but the extra velocity makes it a mite more snappy.  KDs seem to fall easier and groups tend to be smaller.

Keep the data coming.

DD-DLoS

[SFT]

I got good results using 13.2 grains (weight not volume) of Triple 7 and 200 grain Meister SPG lubed bullets.  Found that the SPG wasn't needed as clean as the 777 burns. That's now my standard smoke and boom load for the .45 special, way above any minimum smoke cloud. 
Per Adirondack Jack; (In the Frontier Cartridge arena, 13.2 (BY WEIGHT) which is around 18 and change by volume of 777 works very well)

FWIW- my standard smokeless load is 4 grains of Trailboss and 200gr. Oregon Trail bullets .

[Peddler Parsons]

SFT
That is all good and fine BUT you are below the min. of 1cc  (15 grains) that has been set for black powder, yes you might smoke more and they (777) use 15% less but that is not within the rules.  They worked hard to get it set so we could be on a more even plain, now you wont to cause more trouble, as if the new case was has not been hard enough. Post like this will do nothing but cause more trouble for us.

[SFT]

SFT
That is all good and fine BUT you are below the min. of 1cc  (15 grains) that has been set for black powder, yes you might smoke more and they (777) use 15% less but that is not within the rules.  They worked hard to get it set so we could be on a more even plain, now you wont to cause more trouble, as if the new case was has not been hard enough. Post like this will do nothing but cause more trouble for us.

Parson, I don't mean to cause any trouble, but I quoted my load of Triple 7 by weight, not volume, and if I'm not mistaken that load is several grains above the 15/1cc volume requirement.  I'll edit my post so it's more clear.

[Cuts Crooked]

..and just to make it very clear <chuckle>. There is no 1CC rule ! The rule is that you loads must create the same amount of smoke as 1CC of Goex under a 140 grain bullet.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Hey, I have an even better solution & it's period correct:

http://www.grafs.com/metallic/545

[Adirondack Jack]

Fellers, 13.2 grains WEIGHT of 777 FFG is a VOLUME equivalent of 18 grains BP and a POWER equivalent of about 20 grains.  It smokes well more than 15 grains BP.  I had no trouble at state or regional matches with the "smoke police", nor any other "ammo complaints" with that load in 2+ years (even had Tex shoot some in a side match and got positive feedback with that load).

How do I know the load is a volume equivalent of 18 grains Goex?  Purty easy, I dumped the 777 out of my Lee Perfect and ran some goex FFG through at the same setting and WEIGHED it.

FWIW I have some of the above mentioned recipe (as well as a smokeless recipe) loaded up with the original J/P 200 bullets, (the short nosed ones that seat deep) I hope to try out tomorrow or the next day.

As DD notes, the EPP UG 150 has about the same felt recoil when fired at something above 800 FPS, and if ya do the math has the same momentum, but higher energy.  I managed to knock the plates off a Texas Star with em without any problem.

I'm kinda torn between the two molds myself.  The EPP makes lead last longer, loads easier in the press and is snappier out of the pistols, but the 200 feeds with absolutely no danger of a glitch in my modified Marlin.  Might be I will try some of each in match conditions and see where it leads.

[Adirondack Jack]

Hey, I have an even better solution & it's period correct:

http://www.grafs.com/metallic/545

Good luck getting enough powder in em.  The MARK II is a smokeless case IIRC, the Mark I was the longer BP case roughly the same as the C 45 S (and not made since 1930).

[SFT]

.455 Webley, 100 count brass;
Handling & Insurance:  $3.95 
Subtotal: $29.94
.455 Webley MK-II, 265 grain, loaded ammo, per 20/box
Handling & Insurance:  $3.95
$15.99
Starline unprimed .45 autorim brass, per 100
Handling & Insurance:  $3.95 
Subtotal: $21.74
P.C.I. AMMO 45 AUTO RIM 230gr LEAD-RN 50/bx 
Handling & Insurance:  $3.95 
Subtotal: $20.94 

FWIW-All the above ammo is loaded w/ smokeless

A pound of Triple 7, 3F is $19.59, not including shipping.

From AJ's FAQ section;
"With Hodgdon's Triple Seven, a   loads of 13.2 grains (weight) which is around 18 grains VOLUME, or 40% less than a .45 Colt load, runs a 200 or a 250 grainer in the 700-730 fps velocity range, which is a whole bunch milder than full house .45 Colts."      http://www.cowboy45special.com/FAQ.html

Also from AJ's FAQ section:
"ATTENTION BP shooters,  There is a great new light .45 bullet mold availble.  A 150 grain BIG LUBE bullet , named for El Paso Pete, click on  BIG LUBE  for details. This is very nice BP bullet, carries a ton of lube, and works well in both C&B guns and the Cowboy .45 Special cases in any .45.  C&B shooters who have conversion cylinders can load this bullet in cases for practice, and in C&B cylinders for matches, and enjoy the same fine results."

100 pieces of Cowboy .45 special, which includes shipping is $22.55, less than the same amount of .455 Webley MK-II brass, which is nearly the same length of the .45 special.  Although it's not stated, I'd think that the Webley's 265 gr. bullet isn't moving out at very much velocity, and to my knowledge isn't able to be used in a levergun.  Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm here to learn too. 

"The short case saves a bunch on the powder bill.  I use 777, and it can cost up to $25 a lb.  Using Cowboy .45 Special brass instead of .45 Colt reduced my powder consumption by 40% or so, which means the brass pays for itself in no time. The short case does not require fillers, so all ya need do is dump in your favorite BP or sub, eyeball an amount that leaves some compression with the chosen bullet, set up your BP or sub measure for whatever that is, and yer good to go.  Triple 7 and a rnfp 200 and a scant 13 grains WEIGHTruns about 700 fps out of a 5.5 inch gun, and is deadly accurate.  Out of the 24 inch "Spur Special" Marlin, it runs a very soft 800 and something fps, and will drive tacks and is light enough to not disturb sights, and still produces sufficent smoke to satisfy the SASS Firearms Covenant.
"
Cowboy .45 Special brass is made to .45 Colt diameter and case wall thickness and internal taper, with a .45 Colt rim, and it is the same length as .45 ACP.  It is as if we cut the wasted space in the middle out of a .45 Colt case.  The case head and mouth are the same as .45 Colt.


My thoughts are that since the caliber is period correct, and the case length is substantially similar to other BP ammo of the same are; ie.- .455 Webley, that when using certain bullet weights and real black powder, the Cowboy .45 special qualifies for every catagory including the upcoming Pale Rider, unless it is going to be specifically barred from use.  If I can get 900 fps from the .45spl from my pistols using the right bullets, make a cloud of smoke, and have a little less recoil than a full case of .45 LC as well as save on my powder costs, what's wrong with that?  Using the same combination will allow folks who cannot handle the recoil of full load .45 LC's due to disability or injury, as well as give folks who have smaller hands or of smaller stature to compete in "big bore" catagories.  Is that so bad?

 

[SFT]

PS- 1 pound = 7000 grains.
Using a charge of 13.2 grains of 777 by weight, you get to load 530 cases, give or take a few.

To buy 530 loaded Webley .455's would cost $423.74

530 pieces of Cowboy .45 special is about $94.71, at $25 per pound of Trp 7 and 13.2 grs powder that's a cost of .047 per case .  Typical cost of 530 200 grain .45 bullets (not including shipping) $36.
Components only to load 530 CB.45 spls- $155.71

This does not include shipping or tax or the cost of you reloading equipment, but the difference is considerable.  Again, I'm here to learn, so if my math is off please correct me.

[Adirondack Jack]

It should also be noted that .455 webley ammo has a .039 rim thickness, which is .021 thinner than .45 colt ( or cowboy .45 special) and will not reliably work in .45 colt guns.  Webley Mark II case is also a smokeless case of only .760 length.   So we have a case  .135 shorter than the C 45 S and it'srim is too thin.  No ceegar

Folks, I went through all of this at great length during an exhaustive search which included conversations with "honchos" of several cartridge collector organizations and there IS NO SUBSTITUTE for the C 45 S that will do what it does and run in .45 Colt revolvers without modifications.  IF such a cartridge existed, I would have used it and saved myself a bunch of time and money

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Jack; 

I have a Webley Mk VI.  I use converted .45LC cases.  Shortened with a small tube cutter & trimmed w/ LEE .45acp case trimmer.  Thinned the rims on a lathe with a set of holding mandrels made by a machinist friend.  As the Webley has a slow tapered cylinder, the .45 acp case length works just fine, though a purist might not approve.  Case length of .455 Mk I = .87.  case length of .45 acp / AR / .45 SPC = .889

Ken Waters, I think it was, liked making cases from .45 Auto Rimmed acp, as the case walls were thinner and gave better internal ballistics. 

How about runnin' me up a lot of your cases with the rims already thinned?  I'll do the firing tests for free!

Heh! Rattlesnake;  I bet you'd be on for some of these modified cases as well!

[Adirondack Jack]

Sir Charles,

I actually know of a fellow who has bought some of my brass and is using a hydraulic press and a die he made to thin the rims and make "instant Webley" cases.  As you know, the case wall of .45 Colt get very thick at that much trimming, and this fellow has in the past used autorim and a lathe to make webley mark I cases, but now with the hydralic press and die it is much easier.

The rub is he is in Canada.  It was a bear and a half getting it arranged, but I had to get a distributor to sell the brass to him and have the manufacturer ship the brass to canada, (such are the restrictions of export of ammo compnents) so he can't sell his "webley cases" here either, but he has shared his recipe for the die, which is very very simple.  Should you know of a machinist with spare time to make one,  I can send details if you like.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Just as a coincidence, I live in Canada as well!  I'd be happy to hear about the hydraulic press trick.  Can it be used on one of those "Things in a machanic shop where a hydraulic press is mounted in an iron frame"?
Love to hear about you setting up a distributor in Canada.  You can ship packages less than USD100 can't you?

[Adirondack Jack]

Unfortunately, though there USED to be a $100 exemption on ammo and components, that is no longer the case (though still is on minor parts).  The US State Department entered into a treaty for the western hemisphere that from what I hear got a lot stricter last time around at the behest of a certain caribbean nation trying to round up guns.

The cost and time to get a State department permit would be well beyond any profit potential for my small outfit.

So, I made arrangements to "piggyback" with starline's distributor in Canada, Doubletap Sports.

Doubletap Sports has a website, and they have a limited supply of C 45 S brass on hand, and can, from time to time (whenever I have more made) get more.

The hydraulic press bit involves a "die" consisting of a hole sized to place the case head in with the case head face up, and a recess around the hole where the rim will be, .035 or so deep.  The "punch" is simply a flat ram than comes down and presses the case head into the recess with enough force to thin the rim.  Of course a fancy version would have a spring-loaded ejector to pop em back out, as well as several cavities so one press stroke would thin the rims of several cases.

I believe he said he was using a 50 ton garage press.  The man doing this is in Ottawa I believe (I could look it up) and from his email address, I think he is in some aspect of the diesel business.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Thanks Jack;  I'll welcome the contact.  There might be a market for converted .45SPC cases to .455