19th century bullets

[Driftwood Johnson]

w44wcf:

Thanks for noticing that I said 'some' and not 'all'.

My experience to date with BP in cartridges has been pretty much with Goex and Elephant. These are noticeably dirty powders, and so far, the only bullets that have really worked well with them for multiple shots in a rifle barrel have been the Big Lube bullets. Some commercial bullets cast to one of the old Lyman designs caused my rifle to foul out badly with these powders after about 20 rounds. Accuracy took a nosedive, but returned as soon as I cleaned the barrel. I have about 5 pounds of Schuetzen on the way, and everything I have read about it says it should be much cleaner burning. I am anxious to try it out. Perhaps the old Lyman designed bullets will do better with it than they did with Goex or Elephant.

[Cuts Crooked]

Interesting! This leads to a lot of speculation on my part! American powders were not as high quality as European powders?

Sooooo... how did they cope with the fouling? Or was even the bad powder of civil war era, and later, American production better than the best American made powders today? Let's face it, The American Civil War was the first major conflict that saw the use of multi shot weapons in battle, being used by the average soldier. Somehow I cannot see the Union being dependant on European powders for thier Spencers and Henry rifles in war time production circumstances? (albiet, both weapons saw limited use in comparision with the rifled muskets that predominanted in the fields of the day)

After all we have read here over time about "quality powders" and "period bullets", I still find it hard to fathom that American powders were that bad, especially given the sudden influx of multi shot designs after that civil war from our wonderful Mr Winchester! Ammo makers still had to build the ammo and somehow I doubt that they were going to go to the expense of importing the major componant of said ammo.

Given the above circumstances, and the known fact that Winchester was experimenting with a "big lube" bullet style near the end of the BP era, I'm inclined to think that either American powders were a lot better than given credit for, or ....volume of fire was still very secondary to precise shooting, and most weapons never were fired enough to foul out b'fore cleaning.

For what it's worth, I've tried Lyman bullets with Swiss powder in my Remmies, they started to bind up after two cylinders full. And I could only fire the third cylinder full by assisting the cylinder advance with my off hand. And in my 92 groups started to open up pretty bad after 20 rounds. I went back to cheap powder and big lube bullets and I've been happy ever since.

[w44wcf]

Driftwood Johnson,

Glad to be of assistance.  Thank you for the "thank you".  To date, I do not have any experience with "Schutzen",  but I expect to order some for trials this summer.  Please keep us posted on your results that you obtain with it.

Cuts Crooked,
As you said, "interesting". Black powder history certainly is.  Based on what has been written back in the 1800's, some shooters regarded Curtis & Harveys "Diamond Grain" as being the best in the world. If that was true, I would say that, based on the evidence, some very good black powders were also being produced in the U.S. back then.   

There were a number of b.p. manufacturers in the U.S. at that time and I would speculate that the competition between them resulted in some higher quality black powders being manufactured  by them. Take, for example, a Hazard Powder Co. (Hazardville, CT) advertisement in the late 1800's:

Kentucky Rifle  - The standard rifle powder of the country
Fg (coarse), FFG and FFFG (fine),  for ordinary sporting. This powder is made to an invariable standard, burns strong leaving a moist though inconsiderable residuum. The standard rifle powder of the country. The FG & FFG are used by the majority of sportsmen and sharpshooters.
No more satisfactory powder can be found than the FG Kentucky Rifle - the identical brand used by the majority of the victors of the great international matches.

American Powder Mills (Boston, MA) made a "Sharps Rifle" brand of black powder which was recommended by Sharps for use in their rifles. No doubt, it was good stuff.

After Winchester introduced their famous model of 1873, a gentleman by the name of P.H. Pardee, M.D. of San Francisco, California, wrote:

It affords me much pleasure to communicate to you the result of 30 successive shots at the distance of 110 yards with one of the improved WIncheste rifles. The firing was done without wiping , which proves the WInchester to be steady in her performance.......

The illustrated target that he made shows that all 30 rounds fell in a group of about 4" at 110 yards. That is some very good shooting, especially when one considers that the bullets used in .44 W.C.F. cartridges back then had two very shallow (.015" deep) lube grooves. No doubt, those results could only be achieved with a high quality b.p.

As I had mentioned, the b.p. used by U.M.C. in loading the .45 Colt cartridges I had purchased was of very good quality as well.

As you said, "Interesting".

w44wcf