Custer's Last Stand on The Military Channel

[jd45]

Thanx Del, I guess I'm gonna go back & re-read. jd45.

[MichaelJBeecher]

I noticed that, while they were showing the tracks of the various firearms at the 3 hilltop locations, they stated that 2 soldiers apparently fired a couple of shots from their springfield rifles and then ran to the Keough hilltop...
There is also the possibility that the troopers were killed after firing and then Indians picked up these rifles and headed straight at the next group of soldiers.
I find it less likely that any trooper could have gotten very far had they rose up and attempted to run to another location that was also under attack and given the time-consuming process of reloading the springfield, they would not have fired too many more shots while running for their lives... Seems more like someone who was advancing in an attack...

[Blair]

"If" I were to offer honors to any Custer family members, it would be to Tom.
A true hero of the American Civil War with "TWO" Medals of Honor awarded to his credit and service.
My best,
Blair

[Trailrider]

I would like to visit Custers grave and piss on it!
thats all I have to say about Custer

If you did, you'd likely wind up in the stockade...or Federal prison. IIRC Custer was reburied either at West Point or Arlington!

One thing most often said about Custer's tactics that day was the fact that he "divided his forces".  In point of fact, this was standard tactics of the day! In addition, the archeological dig revealed that only an estimated 260 Indians had firearms of any kind. Most were armed with bows and arrows. Primitive, right? Yeah, unless you take into account the fact that an Indian could discharge an arrow barrage very quickly, AND arrows were capable of high angle fire that could come down behind downed horse barriers!

[GunClick Rick]

ain't that the truth.  Someone told me that particular battle has had more written about it than every other American battle with the exception of Gettysburg.  And like you say, the endearing charm is that we can't know what really happened so we can say just about anything.
     So, I'll tell you what actually happened, and if it's not true, then I am a liar.  Bug eyed slobbering space aliens got Custer 
                                                                                  matt45

I'd say the natives opened up a few barrels of whoop ass!

[RobMancebo]

BTW the folded rim copper case ammo that is said to have caused all the problems with the extractors in the Trapdoor (a folded rim is hollow like a true rimfire) had been condemed by the army before the 7th left ft. Abraham Lincoln.  The Army supply system had not got the newer solid rim rounds (ballon head) to there before they left.  Later these copper cased rounds were replaced by the stonger brass cases.

I cannot imagine the army testing those actions, rifles, and cartridges as thoroughly as they did and not knowing that they would jam until years into combat with them.  Remember, the old modified Springfield muzzle-loaders, and the 50-70s all used the same action and the same thin copper casings.  No one complained about jamming at the 'Wagon Box Fight" in 67. But all of the sudden, in 76 there was a jamming problem. 

So, I'll just pass on some reenactor opinion I got while in the Dakotas in 1980- 
The fellow I talked to said that the reenactor's collective opinion was that there was nothing wrong with the weapons or cartridges of the time.  One of their members actually took an original Springfield and fired up 500 rounds of original ammo to 'prove that the rifles jammed'.  His experiment ended up by burning up 500 rounds of irreplaceable ammunition with not a single jam or misfire.  So, what happened??? 

Well let's begin by looking at what they carried on their person:  He claimed that they had only 18 rifle rounds in a cartridge box and 5- rounds in a pistol.  (This is supported by reading a first-hand account of the battle in 'The Black Hills Trails')  The big canvas cartridge belts hadn't been issued yet (The ones that Tom Horn said weighed, '11 lbs at the beginning of an operation and about as much as a small freight train by the end of one!')  So, rather than leaving all the rest of their ammunition on their horses, some of the men made their own cartridge belts out of leather. Well, roughly tanned leather + brass = verdigris .  Sticking a cartridge with some verdigris on it into a rifle and firing it expands it into a jam.  Then, when they tried to extract, those soft brass rims made the problem worse by ripping through.  A simple problem caused by the GIs themselves. 

Anyway, their theory made perfect sense to me.  So I thought I'd toss it out there. 

Good Hunting,  Rob

[RobMancebo]

A correction to that last post:

The reenactor I spoke with was carrying a 50-70 rifle and he did mention that there had been some rim-ripping problems with that model.  He showed me the little burr-like extractor on the bolt and said that it was replaced by a much better extractor on the newer 45-70s.  (Sorry, it was 34 years ago and I had to dig through all the other historical scavengings in my head to remember it.)

(I could tell that he still really loved that rifle though.  And, of course, he got to fire the more modern brass casings out of it.) 

Sorry, I don't want to pass out erroneous info.  Just passing on what other folks had found out when sorting out the same battle.  Rob

[Trailrider]

So far as the Army allowing problems with small arms and ammo to exist for "years" is concerned, I seem to recall a problem with the original AR-15/M16's and the 5.56mm ammo that was loaded with ball powder instead of the IMR-type powder for which the rifle was designed. Although I had no experience with those pieces, personally, there are numerous anecdotal accounts of troops in 'Nam having rifles jam on them in a firefight! In point of fact, the problem with the internally primed centerfire .45-55/70 ammo was the use of the copper case (actually gilding metal). It may well be that the verdigris on the cases contributed to jamming, as the problem did not occur all the time...just when it was the most critical. The Army did not start producing brass-cased, externally primed ammo until the 1880's. I cannot verify firing anywhere near 500 rds of original, military ammo in a Trapdoor Springfield, but have fired 60 rounds with modern brass cases and BP as fast as I could shoot and reload. The last round ejected just as easily as the first, though the barrel was so hot I couldn't touch it.

IMHO, Custer's men probably didn't last long enough to have many jams. They were strung out along the terrain, and cut up in detail. Reno and Benteen did have to clear several jams of their troops, but those troopers probably fired a lot more during their defense on the hilltop. So far as Reno is concerned, he was lucky to get anybody back across the river alive! The whole attack was ill-conceived, and Custer's whole command was far too small to have made the attempted attack, tactical doctrine of the day notwithstanding. Don't forget, Crook's command had encountered the same Indians a week earlier at the Rosebud, and were fought to a standstill!

[Blair]

I would suggest a study of the type of cartridges cases in common use in June/July 1876 by the US Military.
My best,
Blair

[Fox Creek Kid]

...Don't forget, Crook's command had encountered the same Indians a week earlier at the Rosebud, and were fought to a standstill!

If Crook's Indian auxiliaries had not saved the day the Rosebud would have been a massacre. Crook was out of his element and befuddled by the Sioux, Cheyenne & Arapaho.

[Trailrider]

If Crook's Indian auxiliaries had not saved the day the Rosebud would have been a massacre. Crook was out of his element and befuddled by the Sioux, Cheyenne & Arapaho.

Quite true! Crook also divided his command into three parts. He sent Capt. Fred Van Vliet with two companies to a hill south of the main fight; had his main body under Wm. B. Royall after the supposed main body of Indians (where Royall nearly got trapped and Meinhold's B Company was badly cut up and had to be rescued by Indian scouts; and eventually sent Anson Mills and his battalion up Rosebud Canyon, where the Indians apparently had set an ambush. Fortunately, Crook thought better of Mills' mission and recalled him. Mills was at the only place where he could get out of the canyon, and did so. This put him behind the Indians, who then broke off. Crook's command had expended 50,000 rounds of ammo and had a number of dead and wounded. Wisely, he did not attempt to pursue, counter-marched to his base camp at where Sheridan, WY, is now located, and called for Wesley Merritt to come up with the 5th Cav, including Buffalo Bill. The Rosebud Battle site is only about 23 miles S.E. of the LBH, but Custer never knew it! Had Crook continued north and Custer not been "greedy", the LBH fiasco might have been avoided, and the Indians forced to either surrender or at least disperse.  The whole Big Horn & Yellowstone Expedition of 1876 lacked three things for success: communications between the columns; better planning; and air cover! 

[Fox Creek Kid]

As usual, the American Military failed to learn from the past expeditions of Sully & Connor what worked & what didn't, i.e., don't divide your forces & remember the artillery.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Heroic last stand, a rout or something in between, does it really matter?  An outnumbered and possibly out gunned group of soldiers doing their duty died with their boots on.  To me it matters not if the soldier fell in the Revolution,1812, Early indian wars, civil war, later indian wars, Spanish American war, Honduras, Dominican Republic, Boxer Rebellion, Punitive Expedition, The Great War, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, Dom Rep again, Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm, 911, Iraq, Afganistan, GWOT, Ft Hood 1 or II, Camp Legune or even in a training accident - Hearing Taps for any of them rips my heart out.  Strangely or maybe not so strangely I found when I visited a WWII German cemetery I felt as sad as I did at the American Cemetery in Luxemburg where I went to visit Patton's Grave.

[Trailrider]

Taps at almost any time (except for the end of the day) chokes me up. The one that really does it to me is the Missing Man Formation to honor a fallen flier. 

[Four-Eyed Buck]

For me as a trumpet player, there's a certain emotional tug whenever I sound TAPS. Be it at a funeral or another Memorial Remembrance.

[Ol Gabe]

Just for the sake of historical discussion only...
After Crook met and divided his force to engage the Indians at the Rosebub and took a whupping, he retired to Goose Creek to redress his wounds and rest. Crook's troopers took time, days actually, to fish for trout using line and tackle some had in their own personal kit. The catch was enormous and numbers were recorded by Anson Mills, if I recall correctly, and daily tournaments were held to promote healing and rest amongst the troopers.
This has been documented many times including articles in trout fishing magazines but rarely discussed in military history forums. A simple Google search listing 'Gen. Crook, trout fishing' will bring up several articles.   
More information will surely come forth in years to come about other incidents surrounding the battles, perhaps Custer's revolvers will even show up somewhere, who knows, they most surely must be hiding in some private collection someplace but we'll never know til that person passes into history himself, then again, they could be held as an icon and never be seen by anyone other than those who have the 'need'.
Best regards and never stop researching!
'Ol Gabe

[Trailrider]

I kind of doubt Custer's RIC pistols will ever show up. IF they were picked up by any of the Indians, they probably were either taken to Canada or gotten rid of as a potential identifier of those responsible for Custer's defeat. In addition, being an "odd" caliber, whichever Indian got them would have run out of ammo pretty quickly, rendering them of no value.

As to Crook's "fishing expedition", you forgot to mention the game taken by Crook and his troops. I'd bet there was almost as much ammo expended in hunting at "Camp Cloud Peak" as was burned up in the Rosebud Battle itself! (Well, maybe that's a slight eggageration). After arranging for transporting his wounded and the departure of some of his Indian scouts, and resupply, and co-ordination with Terry, et al, Crook started trailing the hostiles. That, of course, turned into a tail chase that culminated in the Slim Buttes battle at which American Horse was killed and Lt. Leutwitz was badly wounded. After that, the whole expedition turned into the "Starvation March." But that's a whole different story.