All knockdown targets at a match

[Camille Eonich]

Hah!  What if we just make one category called "warthogs" and let them what like to shoot them heavy loads work out the rest?  No duelist or gunfighter subdivision or anything like that.


You can't split off each category into big bore and small bore or anything like that.  The cost of state matches and above are going up to much now.  If you double the categories the prize expense is going to go up too much.

[Arcey]

I'm really not suggesting that either, Cammy.

What I would suggest is everyone leave what the others are doing alone unless what they're doing is unsafe. We've 'excused' three from shoots I can think of for unsafe loads.

When I first made up my 'Heap Bad Medicine' loads I took 'em to Pungo to test.  I talked Missouri Marshal into taking pictures so I could see the smoke for myself.  I had spotters and on one load they said they could see the bullets bouncing off the targets.  I haven't used that one since.

If someone wants to use the "I'm shootin' 'real' loads 'n that's why I got beat" excuse, fine.  But unless it involves safety I believe that's what this whole thing comes down to.

Stages with all or some knockdowns here and there and so forth are easily defeated.  The run-of-the-mill shooters are going to take out a Chrony a shoot if that's tried to test velocity and that's going to get expensive too.

Again, this is best left alone unless there's a safety issue and those can be handled by the clubs without assistance. Some other written rule or specified target set isn't required.  I stressed that in my meeting the Pungo's MD 'n TG this morning (damn, we had a good time shootin' modern stuff too).  It didn't take long.  We were more concerned with genuine issues we needed to discuss.

[Camille Eonich]

Naw Arcey, I was being facetious because that's what so many of the people that shoot those real stout loads suggest as a cure for a non-existent problem except they want to put the "mouse fart" shooters in a seperate category.


I'm with you, as long as it's not a safety issue then just leave everybody alone.

[Delmonico]

Just put everyone in their own catagory.   Then no one has any advantage and everyone can just have fun.

[Camille Eonich]

Just put everyone in their own catagory.   Then no one has any advantage and everyone can just have fun.

There ya have it!

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Just put everyone in their own catagory.   Then no one has any advantage and everyone can just have fun.

Now this makes sense. I don't know why it hasn't been adopted already. 

[Doc Shapiro]

Here's a solution to the cost of awards...  If you win one, you have to pay for it! 

[Arcey]

Damn, Doc.  When I look at the wood I've got hangin' on the wall 'n think about the fees I've paid, I believe I have paid for 'em.

They were worth every dime.

[Montana Slim]

I have an easier solution to the problem of "wimp" loads and the tricked-out guns.

The playing field would be leveled significantly by target spacing and placement. Simply adjust the height, spacing and distance to each targets. Reduce, but don't eliminate the use of double-tap, triple-taps, etc. Note I said reduce, not eliminate.  I do enjoy the variety afforded by using the various sweep techniques. Could even try going back to sweeping the targets (two times or more).....and for shotguns, put some action back in the game with a few flyers...my favorites are pop-up full beer cans and clay birds (activated by a KD).

Simply put, don't line-up all the targets close together in neat, easy rows....this encourages folks to wimp-n-slick the guns to get an edge. In this situation the mechanical speed of the gun (including the recoil) is a big advantage.

I am not advocating making normal CAS stages a long-range accuracy contest. Keep the targets a reasonable size and distance. Just juice it up a bit.

JMHO

Regards,
Slim

[Camille Eonich]

The playing field would be leveled significantly by target spacing and placement. Simply adjust the height, spacing and distance to each targets. Reduce, but don't eliminate the use of double-tap, triple-taps, etc. Note I said reduce, not eliminate.  I do enjoy the variety afforded by using the various sweep techniques. Could even try going back to sweeping the targets (two times or more).....and for shotguns, put some action back in the game with a few flyers...my favorites are pop-up full beer cans and clay birds (activated by a KD).

Been tried.  You know what?  It spread the playing field even more and people who don't shoot as much came away very frustated.  That match had the least number of people walking around with huge grins on their faces as any I have ever been too.  I didn't speak to anybody that felt as though they shot it well.


The match director declared the experiment a failure and promised that if people returned to it the next year that it would go back to the way it has been historically.  Practice levels the playing field.

[Arcey]

Practice levels the playing field.

Practice....  Practice?  Werk.........  AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!

NEVER!!!!  I'll just lose!!!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

My most satisfying, (and rare) stage wins was at Victoria about 10 years ago.  There were about 45 steel knock-downs of various sizes spread from 5 yards to 25 yards over a very wide arc. To complete the stage and get any score at all you had to knock them ALL down.  I had a plan 1. two pistols emptied at the nearest ones. 2. empty the '73 at the farthest ones, and 3.  Keep on single loadin' the '97 until nuthin' moved!  My time was over two minutes.  The next posted time was four minutes-sumthin'.

[Arcey]

Ten rifle, ten pistol(s) and a box of shotshells for a stage?  I won't say whether I'd like that or not 'cuz what I like don't matter to no one but me.  Don't expect it to.  But I wouldn't be back.  Glad you enjoyed it, Charles.  That's what it's all about.

At just two minutes a shooter it would have taken us an hour 'n ten minutes just for the shooting at our last.  Four minutes plus for most shooters?  Do the math.  Then the there's the inevitable prop failure that would have to be attended to.  Throw in reset time and you'd wind up with a two stage shoot this time of year before darkness set in.  When I'm setting up stages I'm trying to get 30 to 40 folks thru with plenty of shooting and allow for their travel time to get back home at a reasonable time.

I'm still firmly in the camp that thinks as this thing has evolved it's close to where it needs to be.  Loads, target type and placement have come about to provide the most shooters with the most fun.  There are always going to some that wouldn't be happy if you hung 'em with a new rope.  They can't be avoided.  But they continue to show up and complain about the stage sets and conduct of the match.  It doesn't conform to their ideals.  I've learned to ignore them.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Where did I hear that new rope trick recently?  It's a good one though! 

The club was in an earier stage of developement then, and the shoot had a low turnout.  Things are more "standard' now, for the reasons you give.  I was "shocked, simply shocked - Rick' when I saw the stage, but any stage is a problem and the winner needs both a plan and some skill.

I didn't say earlier that i had a garage sale shell belt with loose loops and there was a lot of that box on the ground but i had my pockets full as well!

[Montana Slim]

I must have missed something......obviously CAS has grown into a sport where the emphasis is not shooting...or at least not with reasonable accuracy, nor with common sense....but rather an appeal to mass market itself to new members. Shouldn't folks learn proficiency with their weapons?...Again...I'm not talking about turing the sport into cowboy-bullseye.

At my local clubs, new members are embraced and I am glad to help with tips on techniques, safety, loading, and offer encouragement. I wouldn't expect a person who is new to shooting to shoot a match or stage clean, maybe they do...instant gratification age, you know..... Apparently, if a new person isn't happy with their performance (do to our overly complex target arrangement, no doubt)....they'll stay home instead of come out for the next match. By coddling folks with these attitudes and thin-skin, we don't serve anyone.

Hotgun

[Gold Canyon Kid]

I must have missed something......obviously CAS has grown into a sport where the emphasis is not shooting...or at least not with reasonable accuracy, nor with common sense....but rather an appeal to mass market itself to new members. Shouldn't folks learn proficiency with their weapons?...Again...I'm not talking about turing the sport into cowboy-bullseye.

At my local clubs, new members are embraced and I am glad to help with tips on techniques, safety, loading, and offer encouragement. I wouldn't expect a person who is new to shooting to shoot a match or stage clean, maybe they do...instant gratification age, you know..... Apparently, if a new person isn't happy with their performance (do to our overly complex target arrangement, no doubt)....they'll stay home instead of come out for the next match. By coddling folks with these attitudes and thin-skin, we don't serve anyone.

Hotgun

This is a game, it is not an accuracy shooting disipline.  You serve your customers by making them happy.  Folks that miss too much are not happy and go elsewhere.  I personally am not happy when I do not have a clean match.  I have been pretty successful of recent having only a single miss for the last 6 matches including two state championship matches and three club annual matches.  This is the game I play no matter what others do and it makes me happy. It does slow me down a bit but not too much.  I still shoot fairly fast, having won awards in every one of these last six matches in either Senior or Modern categories. My wife on the other hand strives for clean stages.  When she shoots a clean stage she is happy.  If she does not shoot one or more clean stages in a match she is not much interested in returning to that club.  How in the world does making customers happy equate to coddling folks?  I have shot at clubs that strive for no clean matches by any shooter and after shooting there once we do not return.

[Montana Slim]

Better start by quoting myself: "Again...I'm not talking about turning the sport into cowboy-bullseye".

I merely stated that by NOT lining up the pistol targets in an even, horizontal row...all at the same distance, with a few inches between them and doing likewise with the rifle targets will make the game more than simply a speed factor of who has the shortest cycle time on their firearm's mechanism.

I too like to shoot clean. I think the biggest mistake by stage designers is to make scenarios too complicated. I like simple as far as doing, just add some spice tot he layout, within reccommended distances and target sizes. "Again...I'm not talking about turning the sport into cowboy-bullseye".

Over the years I've seen the trend move from interesting layouts of targets to the current philosophy of lining up the pistol targets at 7 yds and the rifle targets at 12-15 yds. All at the same height and distance. Apparently I am expecting too much to assume folks can adjust their firearm hold/aim slightly more than a mere sweeping motion between shots as the firearm is manually cycled.

Customers???
The folks I know who organized clubs, set targets before matches, write stages, run the shooters meeting, cut the grass, tally scores, do cleanup & whatever else seek no compensation. Folks who come to the match pay fees for club equipment/targets and maintenance and often help with the aforementioned chores. I've been on both sides and done all of these tasks...never considered myself or my fellow members as a customer. When I pay a match fee, I consider myself a participant, not a customer.

Slim

[Tensleep]

Slim I hate to tell you this, but I have been doing just that for ten years.

Different size targets at different distances and even different heights and irregular spacings, it don't matter.

The shooter who practices can hit any target on any day... and LOTS of cowboy shooters practice!

Any man or woman who shoots five, six, seven hundred or more rounds a week and dry fires and practices transitions will be able to over come almost any obstacle.

This discussion started being about "wimp" loads.

Thing is, we all play the game (SASS, NCOWS or whatever) for our own reasons. Why penalize ANY shooter for ANYTHING other than a procedural, miss or being unsafe?

[Montana Slim]

Tensleep, from your description, I'd surely enjoy shooting your matches .

Not sure my point is understood....the "benefit" of using a "wimp" load can be reduced/eliminated by use of stage design...at the same time, these types of stage design (as I have proposed) do not have as much adverse effect on a shooter using moderate loads....one stage design technique being target arrangement/placement.

Sure practice makes a good shooter...a good shooter still connects...In this situation the "wimp" load does not provide an edge...it's the ability to connect..... I have not proposed that practice does not pay off...my followups have advocated practice and total familiarity with the firearm. Maybe folks around here aren't typical CAS participants as typical shooters I know do not expend 500+ rounds per week practicing and hours of dry-firing / transition work.

IMO, reduced loads significantly below manufacturer recommendations (ie, "wimp" load) do have potential saftey concerns. Also, once bullet energy at the target falls below a certain level, there is increased likelyhood of projectile bounce-back.

My opinion is/has been "no" on use of all KD matches.

I have not proposed any new penaltys.

I think I understood, have addressed the thread (relative to "wimp" loads and the proposed method to negate - KDs), and tried to add something new to it.

BTW, I've been playing for 12 yrs now. Helped with the startup of three SASS clubs in IL and IA, temporarily serving as president for one club. Been match/stage designer, target maker, mule, chief RO, ad-nausem. I have participated in a minimum of 200 CAS matches (mostly SASS), all in the midwest.

Respectfully,
Slim