All knockdown targets at a match

[Camille Eonich]

So how many of you shoot at clubs that could afford to purchase all knock down targets for a match and also have a place to store them?  How many of you think that a match with no double taps, no triple taps, no Nevada sweeps, no progressive sweeps, lawrence well sweeps or anything like that would be a fun match to shoot?

How many of you would like to take the time to reset 20 + targets after every single shooter?  How about make sure that those targets remain calibrated between every shooter?

How many of you have TGs that think that this would be a fun match?  The reason that I ask is because 95% of the TGs voted to open this option for discussion at the summit this past weekend.


Discuss please. 

[Tensleep]

Sounds like a BIG crock to me....

NONE of the clubs I shoot at can afford it, or have the time to reset after every shooter.

[Sagebrush Burns]

If you've got the targets to do it, why not.  It would be an entertaining change of pace.  Would not want to do it every match, but every now and again...sure!

[Big John Wyatt]

Our club does not have the money for that. I doubt many do. And besides, it just don't make any sense.
Are we having that many problems with scoring, spotting, and challenges by competitors that we would need to increase costs to local clubs monthly match fees, yearly dues, and entry fees to big matches(put on by our local clubs), so that all knockdowns could be purchased?

And as long as you have 10 rifle KD's, 10 pistol KD's and 4 shotgun KD's, you could create different sweeps, but again, who can afford that many knockdowns?

[Doc Shapiro]

Yeah right.  I don't see that happening.  I'm not necessarily against the idea of a minimum velocity or power factor.  But it has to take into account the .36cal C&B and .32's.  Off hand, I can't think of another shooting game that doesn't have a minimum standard for the load.

All knockdowns?  I can only laugh at the idea.

[Major E A Sterner]

I don't remember where it was, But I was at a match one time that had spring loaded target and when properly hit you would see the red painted bottom of the target. The rule was if the spotters didn't see the red then it was a miss. The spring loaded target would fix the target resetting part of the problem. But they would still cost the clubs to buy enough of them to cover a large match. I don't see this going any further than the talking stage, once the price factor comes into play it will be a dead issue. JMHO

[Gold Canyon Kid]

Funny I don't find anything in my notes from the TG meeting that says "all" knock down targets on stages will be studied.  I think you need to wait for the official minutes to see the actual wording. 

[Dakota Dan from OZ]

The only knockdowns we use are for shotgun,and there is a length of rope attached to them so we can reset them after each shooter goes through.We may also use our knockdowns for a pistol or rifle and they have still rope attached.If you had to reset each target you would be there all weekend for a few shooters.
The club I belong to has trouble buying targets for me,so I have made a lot of them myself.

Dakota

[Stump Water]

Funny I don't find anything in my notes from the TG meeting that says "all" knock down targets on stages will be studied.  I think you need to wait for the official minutes to see the actual wording. 

It's in other peoples notes.

There was a lot of discussion on the continuation of low velocity loads.
Should EOT and other matches move toward the use of all knock down targets,
to increase the use of non wimpy loads. The vote was 95/05% (non binding) in
support.

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=54179

[Marauder]

Having all knock down targets would completely change the game.  I think they mean having some knockdowns, mixed in.  But that still is more cost and can be delays.

We used to shoot some spring-loaded targets where you could see red, but it was generally a problem with spotters and the clubs have moved away from them.  Calibration was a problem with them also.

Seems like a solution worse than the perceived problem and I'm disappointed to hear the straw vote, but without knowing more what was said and how it was presented . . .

[Camille Eonich]

We can still discuss it.  Maybe something will come out of it that can be used.

If it is the perception that light loads are such a problem that something needs to be done about it then I would rather see a minimum power factor than all knockdowns or even one knock down per stage for anything other than shotgun.  It can be enfoced the same way that we enfoce the min power standard at our Wart Hog match.  If someone wants to protest someo else's loads then the person is called aside and some of their loads are removed from their supply and they are shot over a chronograph through the shooters main match pistols.  Yes, it would be a pain and would be a waste of a lot of time and effort but .... if they problem is percieved to be THAT bad.....

Unless the knockdown was designed in such a way that the size of the knockdown was a standard size target and the critical zone to achieve a knockdown on the target was the same size as a standard target you are going to severely handicap a large portion of people and that portion will not be the top shooters.  One true problem of a knock down is that often you have to hit the top of the target to take down it down.  Even with a fair powered load.

I don't know about other ranges around the country but the one that the NC State match is held at only allows forward falling targets for anything other than shotguns.  That's so that in the case of a double tap the second round isn't deflected out of the berm if the target is falling.

[Arcey]

To me, it all just sounds like something to talk about.  "All knockdowns" isn't going to happen anymore than a minimum power factor is.  Especially at EoT.  The TGs aren't that thick.  They're probably sitting around laughing over it now.

Also, in the notes, an open lever was defined as one not completely closed.  Brilliant analysis if I may say.  And, obviously, something that needed to be addressed.

But, hell.  If a club was footing the bill to send me to Las Vegas I'd find something to talk about too.  I sure did when the city sent me there for a civil litigation seminar.

[Camille Eonich]

And the ground is not a prop.   

[Arcey]

LOL!!!!

Yeah.  That too................

[Gold Canyon Kid]

I don't remember where it was, But I was at a match one time that had spring loaded target and when properly hit you would see the red painted bottom of the target. The rule was if the spotters didn't see the red then it was a miss. The spring loaded target would fix the target resetting part of the problem. But they would still cost the clubs to buy enough of them to cover a large match. I don't see this going any further than the talking stage, once the price factor comes into play it will be a dead issue. JMHO

I have shot with two clubs that use those spring loaded targets and both have modified them to fall completely.  You can not reliably determine if they have been hit looking for the color.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I don't think you'd be too popular with a complete match of knock-downs with some shooters. One of the most fun stages I shot was at a match put on by the Chorro Valley Regulators. It was 25 knock-down targets. Time only. No miss, shoot until all targets are down. Your choice of pistol(s)/rifle/shotgun, any order, not all needed, you could do it all with your shotgun if you could get the rifle targets with it. Shoot from any point on the firing line, moves were acceptable (necessary, actually) as long as safety rules were observed. Beep. Have at it. Darn lot of fun. I wouldn't mind a match like that, but only as a now and then thing. I shoot 38's, but I can load 'em hot for knockdowns if need be.

[E.R.Beaumont]

Howdy Pards and Pardettes.

Knock down targets don't have to be poppers, an 12" disc with a foot set on top of a piece of rebar set 10 feet out.  We used to use a lot more of those back then.  We would set them out to a max of 40' for the rifle. 

These weren't ment to weed out the gamers, it was just the guy who made most of the stages liked reactive targets and fallers were the easiest.  We did spend a lot more time setting targets.  There weren't as many shooters back then but a match took a lot longer.  It made it a lot easier to score a shooter cause counters weren't needed till the end, to count what was left up.

The most important part of this was that it was a heck of a lot fun to shoot, targets falling and flying, spinning and turning sideways, just basicaly pure shooting enjoyment.  Make friends with the IPSC, IDPA, and other practical shooting disciplins in your club and then you can plan the target aqusition stratagy that all disciplins can agree on.  For instance the IPSC people at our club went in with the cowboys and we got two Texas Stars.  Both disciplins use them and we have twice as many as if we had just gotten the one we could afford.

That is all I think I know.
Regards, Beaumont

[Howdy Doody]

I got a note from my TG. He always asks if we have input and keeps us abreast of current stuff. I was surprised to see that we might now be able to ask all kinds of questions on a forum. I don't think he would mind my posting this here. He is a good TG for our club. I know from shooting with him that he is super competitive. I would like to think that he would not favor much to hinder anyone that was. In the same token, he is no spring chicken and can see the needs of older shooters too. He didn't address the all knock down targets item in this message, but my gut feeling is that it won't happen. The expense alone would put small clubs under. It would be impractical to even have to set the targets too, since no more verticle long gun staging. You would have to clear the shooter to the unloading table first and although here in my area we have berms at the sides to unload into, I know some clubs have to have a unloading table with guns pointed down range. Therefore, it would take a long time to ever shoot 5-6 stages, even with a small amount of shooters. It just isn't going to happen. Probably what will happen would be some kind of knockdowns to set up for some kind of minimum velocity. Don't know myself. I just think that if they have a special forum to hash out these issues, that eventually a solution will come to everyones, or at least the majority of members liking.

Hello everyone;

Another TG summit has come and gone. As was reported earlier, the agenda this year was not as hot as last years. I want to thank all of you that gave me input, and hope that things went the way you wanted them. Here are the results:

The Uberti 1873 percussion revolver will not be allowed in the Frontiersman category.
The Senior category will be split. Senior will be age 60-64, and Silver Senior will be age 65-69. This was changed back to the original split by a large majority.
The Stage Conventions passed. Part 3 was changed to allow the long guns to hang over the end of the horizontal staging table, with the only requirement being that they must be flat, and be staged on the table to at least the back of the trigger guard..(not the back of the lever). These are ONLY in effect when the stage scenario does not state otherwise.
All short and log sleeve tee shirt and tank tops are outlawed in all categories. This does not effect short sleeve blouses in the Womens categories.
Shooting out of category will award the shooter a 10 sec penalty the first time. The shooter must subsequently comply with the category or be change to a different category. The second offence is a stage DQ, and the third is a MDQ.
If a shooter receives a MDQ, their scores will be eliminated from the main match, so that they do not effect others. A shooter that receives a stage DQ can still win in his category if he can overcome the DQ and still beat everyone else.
After the agenda items were voted on and completed, there were a number of items that were discussed, and a straw pole was taken.

Should the Gunfighter style be allowed in all categories? The straw pole was NO

Should we reinstate the required Minimum Velocity rule. The straw pole was NO¦however, it was overwhelmingly agreed that the issue of Wimp loads must be addressed. This will be looked at in the coming year in an attempt to find some acceptable way to put an end to the extremely light loads. This issue was brought up by the WB, and it is expected to be addressed in the CC

.

Should we allow 410 and 28 ga in the Elder Statesman Category. The straw pole was NO.

There were a number of items that were discussed by the RO committee. Most of these will be thrown up for discussion at the Regional matches in the coming year.

Just how much authority does a Berm Marshal have? The general consensus was that they could not overrule the Posse RO or the Spotters.

Does the De-cocking rule apply to all firearms?

When does the stage really start? We were told that it starts with the BEEP! That is contrary to the current rule of first round down range. It is expected to be made the new rule. The reasoning was two fold. First, it is ck if the first round is a squib rather than the second round, and.it appears that more and more shooters are getting restarts when they fail to get a good Grab at the shotgun shells, or some other event that is the shooters fault. If this rule is enacted, it will apply on when the shooter starts doing what ever is required…such as getting his shotgun shells or whatever. It will also not be applied if the RO starts the shooter before he is ready.

There is also a major movement to revamp the minor safety rule by putting a max of one minor safety per gun. This would eliminate the double jeopardy that results when an extra round is loaded in the rifle, and shows up at the loading table. Ie…the shooter loads 10 on a stage that requires only 9 rounds. Then, after shooting his 9 he shows up with a round on the carrier. He NOW gets a 10 sec for loading too many rounds, and also a 10 sec for a round on the carrier.

Next, any rules that are not being universally enforced, should be removed.

SASS wire answers. Who answers the questions for the various committees? San Quinton and myself are the spokespersons for the Mods committee, and PaleWolf is the spokesperson for the RO committee. I am the spokesperson for the Long Range, and the Black Powder. BUTother members are answering questions, and that sometimes leads to a problem. There will be a forum setup which will contain numerous OFFICIAL Q&A. Everyone thought that this would be a great idea.

Snakebite

[Big John Denny]

It is my understanding that the discussion was to use a few knockdowns interpersed on some stages in an effort to slow down the downloading of shells usiing less and less powder and smaller and smaller bullets. It was not intended that knockdowns would be used for every target on every stage.

I think the comment about all knockdowns at EOT was made more tongue in cheek. In fact, EOT had a couple of knockdown targets on at least two stages this year.

I don't see this as a big deal or a major problem for any club.

[Arcey]

Don't think anyone was seriously suggesting it either, John.

Thing is, some folks read that post and did take it seriously.  We've got a l'il lady that's havin' a lot of fun with her 32s.  She hasn't been shooting long.  She read it went into a panic.

Knock downs aren't going to solve anything if they're interspersed with static targets anyway.   Light loading folks are just going to load for it.  I can speak from experience.  When I'm confronted with one or two I just slip a cartridge I intended for the rifle in the pistol(s) in the appropriate chamber(s).  They have more than enough 'WHAP' to put 'em down 'n I don't have the recoil to put up with for the others.

I'm thinking if someone goes so light they're a hazard – run 'em off – my club has.  Other than that they're legal.  I'm in favor of various categories.  From what I hear most of the objections to light loads comes from those who prefer hotter, heavier stuff.  Their choice.  Other than them beatin' up the club's targets 'n deafenin' me when I'm runnin' the clock I don't care.  Give them their own category and maybe they'll quit whining.