Pocket Pistol Question

[Major Matt Lewis]

The 1862 Pocket Police is a valid NCOWS Pocket Pistol for Pistoleer correct?

[Trap]

As long as the barrel is no longer than 4"

[docgoodluck]

TRAP I ALSO HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT POCKET PISTOLS. WOULD A SCHOFIELD 45 WITH 3 1/2" BARREL BE LEGAL AS POCKET PISTOL OR WOULD IT BE A BELLY GUN? ARE THEY THE SAME THING?

THANKS

DOC

[Books OToole]

The way the NCOWS rule is currently worded, my 4" barrel Peacemaker is a legal pocket pistol.  Therefore a 3 1/2" Schofield should be okay.

Personally I consider them both belly guns not pocket pistols, but rules are rules.

Books

[Trap]

 Doc, as the rules are now,  the schofield in question would be a legal PP. I don't believe many are happy with the rule as it stands , but new wording or definition has not been agreed upon. belly-gun may be a good term,  but PP is a term that defies a good definition across the board in NCOWS. Not all posses use a PP, but those who do use the 4" max barrel length as the criteria.

[James Hunt]

I showed up at the 2005 Nationals with the only pocket pistol I owned - an original 1862 turned rd barrel factory conversion in .38 cf. A nifty little five shooter for sure. I was armed with documentation showing that in the period it was not considered a holster pistol, but rather a convenient firearm most likely carried in a pocket. Approaching the individual acting as judge at that time I was simply told "oh we're not going to argue over a 1/2 inch". So I went ahead and shot it. I never got a written official NCOWS variance from anyone. I never got a chance to plead my case with my written documentation. In fact I was expecting to be turned down, even though I believe it to be a "pocket pistol" and not one commonly holstered.

Since my only interest now is shooting either working cowboy or originals class, I have lost interest in pursueing the pocket pistol issue. It has been discussed to death on this board in the past and as I recall the result seemed to be it that it is pretty hard to define a pocket pistol with most arguing for whatever armament they owned.

Things have changed at NCOWS now, for the better in my opinion and I'm sure that eventually a decision will be made defining a pocket pistol. You can do what I did and ask for a variance from the Judge and authenticity committtee if you supply the documentation, problem is they did not seem to market the term pocket pistol that much in those days. At least I never found a primary source relating to this gun as a "pocket pistol". I did find a secondary source which opined that very, very few holsters seem to exist for the number of these little guns now and that was because they were carried on the person in a article of clothing. It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

Until then Major Matt: hang on to that 1862 police, it is a neat little gun, particularly if converted to 38 cf.

[O.T. Buchannan]

I'm in the same boat as James...as an Original, I no longer shoot pocket pistol, but I have a couple of percussion pistols that fit the bill.  I have an 1849 Pocket Colt in .31 calibre, w/4 inch barrel, and an 1860 Colt 'Avenging Angel' in .44 calibre w/3 inch barrel.  Both are Ubertis.  I would like an 1862 Police, as I've always found them to be beautiful guns....

[St. George]

I've written a bit on this subject, as some of you know.

There are all sorts of appellations given to these revolvers - and a number of opinions.

Going by frame size - and 'not' barrel length is what probably defines the true 'pocket pistol'.

The old criteria that 'if it fits in a pocket' doesn't wash.

A 'belt' pistol was just that - a revolver designed to be carried in a holster.

The smaller-framed Colts were really designed to be carried on the person - but not openly.

In the book - 'The Book of Colt Firearms' - by Sutherland and Wilson - judged by all serious Colt collectors to be the 'bible' - under 'Pocket Colt Percussion Arms' you'll see indexed on page 602:

No. 1 Paterson Model
No. 2 Paterson Model
Baby Dragoon or Model 1848
Model 1849
Sidehammer Model 1855
Model 1862 Pocket Pistol of Navy Caliber
Model 1862 Police

There are sub-titles for Conversions, London Models and Experimentals, as well, and a bit lower, you'll see:

Pocket, New, DA Model Revolver (marketed in 1893)
Pocket Positive DA Model Revolver (marketed in 1908)

Nowhere does a reference show that barrel length had anything to do with description.

A large-frame such as a Schofield or the 'Avenging Angel' used by the Mormon Danite assassins (Porter Rockwell didn't have the only one) were 'belly guns' - short-barrelled, large-bore concealment revolvers.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Major Matt Lewis]

Here is where I find myself in violent agreement with St. George and others.  We as an organization really need to redefine what is a pocket pistol.  I think I have posted something like this before too.  My concern is more tactical than an idealistic soap box.  I am going to the Nationals in 2007. 

Right now, I am planning on shooting Smokeless Duelist, which I have the perfect pocket pistol for.  If I decide to shoot Pistoleer, which I may and will eventually, I need to buy a new percussion pocket pistol.  It looks like my only realistic choice is the 1849 Pocket Revolver.  That seems to be the only pocket pistol that fits the barrel requirement besides the 1840 Wells Fargo, which seems like it would be too much a PITA.  Is the 1849 my only option for Pistoleer?

[Trap]

The pocket Remington would be an excellent chioce

[Major Matt Lewis]

The pocket Remington would be an excellent chioce

Do you have one?

[Trap]

I too want to see this revisited. Maybe the answer is to have two terms, pocket pistol/belly gun. Personally I don't think a full frame revolver should be considered a PP, but that is only my opinion.

And Matt , Sure you can try my pocket Rem.

[Trap]

Yes I do

[Major Matt Lewis]

Think I could try it out sometime this Spring?

[St. George]

If you're going to compete with one - the Pocket Remington - while nowhere near as nice as a Model 1849 Pocket Colt - will probably be the tougher gun.

Pick your Pocket Revolver for 'feel', since none of them have hand-filling grips, and ergonomics plays a big part when using a smaller-framed revolver.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Major Matt Lewis]

St. George,

That is the way I am actually leaning, the Remmie.  My thought behind that is that when I go to the Pistoleer Class/Frontiersman Class in SASS, I will be using a pair of 1851 Navies.  They will need a Manhatten Conversion to make them competitive with the Remingtons.  I do not want to go through the same expense of having that done on a pistol that MAY be used twice a year.  Being competitively natured, I don't want to have to deal with the negative impacts of Cap Fragments causing a jam either, so I will tolerate a Manhatten Conversion on my Navies, but won't have to deal with it with the Remmie.

But you are right, that 1849 is a pretty gun.

[Books OToole]

If the "Pistoleer" class allows the use of a 1866 Winchester;  It would stand to reason that a Model 1 or 1 1/2 S&W would also be legal to use a pocket pistols.

S & W Model 1 first issue 1857-1869
                     second issue  1860-1868
                     third issue 1868-1881

S & W Model 1 1/2 first issue 1865-1868
                           Second issue 1868-1875


And while we are gaming the "Pistoleer" class:  The Remington New Model Army Revolvers were converted to fire metallic cartridges as early as 1866.

Books

[Major Matt Lewis]

    Now your talkin my language Booksy

[Trap]

Pistoleer class; you may use the S&W for a PP but the main revolvers must be C&B.     jt


Matt, Sure you can try my Pocket Rem.

[O.T. Buchannan]

I also agree that both pocket pistols AND belly guns should be allowed.  If we have to change our terminology to make this work, so be it.  We don't HAVE to call them all pocket pistols..or belly guns, for that matter.  How about 'hideout guns', or hideout revolvers', or something like that? Then, define the category to allow BOTH to be used.

Simple.