Magnum primers for Black Powder loads?

[John Barleycorn]

I have read that magnum primers give black powder loads a better more complete " burn " is this bunk, or do darksiders agree? Thanks for the help and many tips so far...JB

[Tensleep]

I believe that magnum primers give better ignition for most all cowboy loads.
Personally I use magnum primers with my APP & 777 loads.

[Grapeshot]

I have read that magnum primers give black powder loads a better more complete " burn " is this bunk, or do darksiders agree? Thanks for the help and many tips so far...JB

In my experience, limited as it may be, I have found that Magnum Pistol Primers, coupled with a 3/32nd in flash hole gives a cleaner and more complete burn in .45 Colt and .44-WCF cartridges.  Especially if you are compressing the powder charge.

I have fired APP and 777 with standard primers and got inconsistant ignition. in the .45 Colt Cartridge and the .44 Colt Cartridge.  These are the two I use in my revolvers.  The .44 WCF out of my Carbine likes the CCI  Magnum Primers over any of the Standard Primers.

There are a lot of opinions on enlarging the flash holes, both pro and con.  I strongly suggest that you try some experiments for yourself and make a decision based on performance out of your firearms.

[Dick Dastardly]

I've no experience with subs/replica powders, but I can speek for Holy Black.  The latest trend for very long range BP cartridge shooting is large PISTOL primers.  I'm talkin' 1000 yards and more here.  Standard, not magnum, PISTOL primers as in 45-70 cases with compressed loads of Swiss bp under 500 grain bullets.  Reason, cleaner more consistant burn.  Why?  Don't know.

For all my SASS main match shooting I've found little or no difference between standard and magnum primers.  Again, I don't shoot subs/replicas, only Genuine Powder.  I've got nothing against the subs/replicas, I just don't use 'em and have no reason to start and so have no experience with 'em.

DD-DLoS

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I have read several experts who claim more complete and more consistant burns with BP and Magnum primers. Personally, for the accuracy needed for the close targets in CAS, I have never used anything other than standard primers, usually Winchester Large Pistol, sometimes I use Federal Large Pistol. For peak performance it may well be true that better accuracy can be obtained with the Magnum primers. I do not know. I do know that all of my rounds have always ignited and fired with standard primers, and I have never had a misfire attributable to the strength of the primer.

If you choose to open up your flash holes, DO NOT EVER USE THOSE CASES WITH SMOKELESS POWDER!!!!! Flash holes are the size they are for a reason. Open up the hole and you will get more back pressure into the primer pocket. Not a problem with BP pressures, a potentially very big problem with Smokeless.

[Delmonico]

I've heard all kinds of "therories" as to why this is the one to be used and why and so forth.  My black is mostly shot in a Pedersoli 45-70 Sharps and I use Federal 215M magnum, the "therory" behind it is simple, with that rifle they shoot better than any of the standard or other mag primers I've used.  The best answer is try and see what the gun likes and feed it what it wants.  I do put a good funnel on the flash holes with a flash hole deburring tool.

[Grapeshot]

Howdy
If you choose to open up your flash holes, DO NOT EVER USE THOSE CASES WITH SMOKELESS POWDER!!!!! Flash holes are the size they are for a reason. Open up the hole and you will get more back pressure into the primer pocket. Not a problem with BP pressures, a potentially very big problem with Smokeless.

Not trying to caused any trouble here, but a few years back, Winchester was selling some ammo that utilized lead free primers anlong with it's TMJ bullets.  The primers were a bit on the weak side so the flash holes were considerably larger than the standard size holes.  The litrature on the box indicated that one could reload this brass with standard primers and powder loads without fear of pressure problems.

I took them up on that and loaded up fifty rounds of .45 ACP with Unique and a 230 grain Speer Gold Dot bullet fired with a Winchester Large Pistol Primer.

I did not get any major pressure indications, like flatened primers or cratering.  Might be that those "don't use brass with bigger flash holes" could be a cautionary remark by some who aren't really sure what will happen.  Nothing wrong with that, except I remember a time when we had a small and large primer de-capping pin for our reloading dies, and some of the older brass I was getting did have different size flash holes back in the early 1970's.

Maybe someone here has access to some lab reports on this subject.  I'd really like to get this straightened out.  No use in keeping a "warning" around if it ain't true.

[Delmonico]

Opinion only here.  45 acp is not far from black powder pressures.  I don't know if I'd want a Ruger only 45 Colt of 45-70 Nitro load in an enlarged flash hole.  By posting that they should not be used in any Nitro load is just safe.

[Doctor Bill]

When I first started shooting my 45-120 rifle I read that I should use magnum primers in that firearm to get cleaner, more consistent burns of the powder.  I suspect this would make a difference if I was regularly shooting 1000-yard matches and could actually place my rounds in a dinner plate sized spot at that range.  As far as CAS shooting goes, I use whatever is on sale.  I have yet to see a steel plate with an "X-ring" on it.

Doctor Bill

[dpote]

For what it's worth, I use regular primers. Whatever is the cheapest, is the best. I do not open the flash hole. That would add yet another variable I don't care to mess with. I do, however deburr the flash hole from the inside of the case. That alone improves consistant ignition.
I only load cased ammunition for my rifle, an 1892 copy .44 Extra Long Russian (thanks to Dick Dasardly for the caliber designation). I shoot it at CAS matches and goof off out to 300+ at the gong on our range.
The pistolas are cap and ball, because I'm deadly like that... Which is interesting, and still on topic.
As an example for what Driftwood Johnson was saying about pressures. Did you ever notice with stock nipples one gets more cap jams than with replacements, such as Treso or Thunder Ridge? I think its because the flash hole is a skosh smaller in the replacement. Meaning less back pressure.
Now, if I got some FFFFG into my ROA, would there be enough pressure to cock the gun again?
Dave

[44caliberkid]

   To start with lets separate pistol loads for CAS shooting and big rifle loads (45-70, etc.) for longer range shooting.   For pistol carts I think any primer will probably do the job.   I use mag primers because they were the same price as regular.
   In 45-70 I only use Federal Magnum Large Rifle primers.   Most of my rifle cases also have enlarged flash holes.
   A past article by John Taffin stated that he always observed better accuracy and more consistant velocities with mag primers than any others.
   If I was shooting my 44-40 rifle at 200 yards I might notice a differance, but for CAS ranges, I can't tell.

[Uncle Jaque]

  This thread pretty much answers my question about enlarging flash holes to 3/32" in BP pistol loads.    I used to do it routinely in the .45-70, segregating the brass.
We do have a few old 1890s vintage balloonhead cases which will hold a little more soft coal, but they are getting scarce.

    Recently I got a Jager "Dakota" SAA clone in my favorite pistol round, the .44 Special. 

    By the way; what is the difference between a ".44 Russian extra long" and the special?

    Anyway, I loaded some 246 gr. Kieth SWCs over a compressed charge of 31 gr. of 3fg, and was wondering if I should be tweaking the primer holes like I do with the .45-70.

   I read somewhere that the magnum primers do help to penetrate and break up the compressed cylender of powder, exposing more surface area to promote faster and more complete ignition.   After I shoot up the ones I have loaded, I think I'll try doing that.

   Also; what do you lube your bullets with?

   Mine are alox and beeswax, which is OK for smokeless but I could do better for BP.   
Might have a stick of old SPG around somewhere.  Do they still make TC "Bore Butter"?  That used to work pretty well, as I recall.

  A blend of beeswax and beef tallow was used on Civil War Minie' balls, and I assume that it was commonly used on other bullets of the period as well.

For resizing lube, I concocted a blend of canaruba bowling alley paste wax and Ballistol.
Works like a charm, and I wonder if it might serve as a decent bulllet lube as well.

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho Dpote,

I've been able to get enuf FFFFg in ROA chambers under a round ball to blow the hammer open to full cock.  Made a semi auto out of it.  Also dumb.  I got pieces of cap stuck in my face and blood was runnin'.  Luckily I was wearin' my shootin' glasses.  They got pits.  So, that's not a good idea.

I did some chrono tests.  Double blind studies.  I found slightly small SDs in the standard pistol primers compared to Magnum pistol primers.  Not much difference in velocity and they shot to the same POA.  So, load what ya got and ring steel.

For the 1000 yard stuff, the latest idea is large pistol primers, standard flash holes and compressed bp.  The burn seems slightly more smooth.  The theory is that the powder gets started before the bullet is pushed out into the barrel resulting in a more continuous burn and less explosion.  I don't know cuz I've never seen the inside of my rifle barrel when it was goin' off.  Good way to loose an eye. . .  I'm workin' on developing a load based on the LP primer 45-70 heavy bullet duplex design.  It's showing promise.  I doubt that any one way is going to be "best" in every gun.

To sum it all up, load what works best for you.  If you want data, shoot over a graph at paper and take notes.  I'm bettin' you won't find much difference.  Last thing ya want to do is go with something cuz "everybody is doing it".  Collective "knowledge" is usually based on prejudice, not fact.  Part of the fun of loading our own ammo is to get the facts by first hand experimenting.  Have at it and enjoy the learnin'.

DD-DLoS

[Driftwood Johnson]

I read somewhere that the magnum primers do help to penetrate and break up the compressed cylender of powder, exposing more surface area to promote faster and more complete ignition.   After I shoot up the ones I have loaded, I think I'll try doing that.

Howdy

In my experience, BP does not compress evenly, from top to bottom, but instead tends to stratify, with the topmost 1/4" or so being compressed into a hard packed cake, but the rest of the body of the powder remains relatively loosely packed. This is based on my experience of pulling bullets after the occaisional boo-boo where my press failed to deliver a primer. After pulling the bullet, I picked out the powder, so I could safely seat a primer in the case. The top portion of the powder was densly packed, but after I broke through that portion, the rest of the powder just poured right out. Based on that evidence, I don't follow the logic of needing to 'penetrate and break up the compressed cylender of powder'

I will add the caveat that my typical CAS ammo has a relatively light compression, usually in the range of 1/16"-1/8". Perhaps if I was compressing the dickens out of it, the story would be different. I do compress my 45-70 powder considerably more, but I have not tried picking out any powder. Still, the nature of granular materials, and the way they tend to pack under compression leads me to believe that unlike a liquid, compression will tend to stratify the material, from the top down, rather than resulting in an even amount of compression through the entire material.

Whatever, I have been using standard Winchester primers in my ammo since day one, and it all goes bang. Whether or not I could milk a little bit more consitancy out of my velocity is a moot issue with CAS ammo, as far as I am concerned.

Grapeshot: No, I have no lab data regarding opening flash holes. I may have read it in one of my loading manuals, can't really remember right now. If I find a specific reference, I will report it. Perhaps it is just cautionary. Still, I choose not to open flash holes.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Oncle Jacque;  ".44 Russian Extra Long", is just a nickname for .44 Remington Magnum, or as I call it "Raging Mad".  The same lack of logic would have the .44 Special labelled as .44 Russ. Long.  All of this has some historical background, going back to the shorter rimfire rounds of the 1860-70 era, some of which acquired centrefire counterparts.  Some of them had "Short", "Long", & "Extra Long" versions.  Most of them were killed off by the .44-40, and other, WCF cartridges.  If you don't own a tattered and yellowed copy of CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD, it's time to get one.  It is my most used reference book, except in the outhouse!

I used to use Federal 215 primers for all BP rifle loads.  However, some of my rifles preferred CCI LRM's

[Dakota Widowmaker]

I loaded up some nice 45-90 rounds with 80gr of GOEX Express FFg, 340gr Lee bullet, starline brass that was drilled 3/32" in the flash hole, and Winchester magnum large rifle primers.

Both my Wincheser 1886 and my Dad's Uberti 1885 did pretty well with the loads. the barrels were VERY clean after a dozen rounds each. Just a few patches with some Ballistol and they were as good as new. (we went back over the next day with Kroil as we usually do)

Dad took a buck this year with his 1885 hi wall in 45-90.

I have seen REALLY good groups with my 1886 and this combination out to 100 yards. Dad's hi walls likes a heavier bullet, in the 400gr+ range. Mine likes a 300-350gr.

Its my understanding that LRM primers from Fed and Win best "duplicate" the primers of long ago. (I could be wrong)

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

I guess I'm sidin' with the majority here.  In 45 Colt, with BP, I have found no discernable difference.  I don't have a chrono, so I only can go by the recoil and residue.  Using smokey-less, however, I've found that use of a Mag primer is about like adding another 0.5gr of powder.  Especially with Unique.  A full published load I was using (45 ACP) called for 5.5 gr of Unique.  I was able to use 5.0gr with the Mag primer and got the same POI results - and a cleaner burn with the notoriously dirty 'Old' formula Unique.  (The new Alliant "recipe" supposedly burns cleaner, but I don't know.)  I also tried the MAG primers with Win 231 and Alliant Bullseye, but quit when I read a cautionary statement warning against using Mag primers with double-based powders.  Like Bullseye and Win 231!  It did no harm and wasn't apparent, but I decided against taking chances.

With 45-70, I also have found no apparent difference with Mag primers.  I haven't shot my Big Gun as much as I'd like, so my experience is VERY limited.     As for smokey-less, well ... I don't use it with the Big Gun.  Almost seems wrong, ya know!    If I were a hunter, then I might use smokey-less, but for now ...

Now, nothing was mentioned about mag caps for C&B pistols, but here's what I've found.  (CCI makes mag caps for muzzleloaders & C&B pistols, if ya didn't know.)  For Goex 2f or 3f, I didn't notice any real difference.  HOWEVER, when I used them with Pyrodex, (the ONLY sub I've ever tried) pellets or powder, I DID get more consistent ignition - especially with the pellets.  I only bought the pellets to give them a try when my favourite BP store went outta business and sold everything at bargain basement prices.  Otherwise, around here the 'less-than-a-pound' can of Pyrodex pellets is about 3 times more expensive than powder.  For a BP hunter, I can see limited use - but the little vials that hold a premeasured amount of powder are MUCHO better values, IMHO.

Anyhoo, that's my story ... and I'm stickin' to it.    

[Grapeshot]

For what it's worth, I use regular primers. Whatever is the cheapest, is the best. I do not open the flash hole. That would add yet another variable I don't care to mess with. I do, however deburr the flash hole from the inside of the case. That alone improves consistant ignition.
I only load cased ammunition for my rifle, an 1892 copy .44 Extra Long Russian (thanks to Dick Dasardly for the caliber designation). I shoot it at CAS matches and goof off out to 300+ at the gong on our range.
The pistolas are cap and ball, because I'm deadly like that... Which is interesting, and still on topic.
As an example for what Driftwood Johnson was saying about pressures. Did you ever notice with stock nipples one gets more cap jams than with replacements, such as Treso or Thunder Ridge? I think its because the flash hole is a skosh smaller in the replacement. Meaning less back pressure.
Now, if I got some FFFFG into my ROA, would there be enough pressure to cock the gun again?
Dave

I don't know about the 4Fg in your ROA, however, I do remember reading that Ruger stuffed the chambers of their Old Army with Bullseye and put a ball on top of it and lit it off with CCI or Remington caps and the gun held together.  Not sure I'd want to ever try that.

[Dick Dastardly]

Yer rite Grapeshot.

The ROA is basically a Blackhawk in C&B cloths.  The metals and dimensions are all very good.  I don't know if I'd do the Bullseye test you mention, but any load that would destroy a ROA would likely also destroy a Super Blackhawk.

Walt Kirst aka Sam'l Remington is a fine friend.  He makes the Kirst Konverter cylinders for ROAs and other C&B guns.  I've heard stories about loads being shot out of Kirst Konverter cylinders in ROAs that I'd not want to duplicate.

All that said, I think it is some lack of testostrone or organ size that brings some shooters to destroy perfectly good guns.  If you want a magnum, buy a magnum.

Now, for a real treat, let's go the other direction.  How about a little bullet that emulates the original round ball?  Okay, I won't get on the stump about the new EPP-UG, but there is genuine traction there for pards that want to be very competitive with the big bore ROAs. . .

DD-DLoS

[john boy]

CAS ... Large Pistol works just dandy.... many CCI's later
BPCR ... All depends on the caliber... and who the forum poster is