NCOWS: What's the diff from SASS?

[Monument Valley Mike]

Okay, I am NOT trying to start a flame war here....just asking a question because I don't know.

What is the difference between NCOWS and SASS?

Is there a reason to belong (if you live in CA like moi)?  Do they have clubs out on the West Coast area?

I see ads for them and just wondered about them......any insight would be appreciated.

Monument Valley Mike

[Books OToole]

There are undoubtably better people to explain the differences than me, but I take a stab at it.  Keep in mind that I am a Historian that likes to shoot and an NCOWS member (and Posse Representative to the Congress).  I have only been to one SASS shoot.

At the local Posse/Club level it is best not to make generalizations.  Each one deveolps its own personality.  At this level it may be hard to tell the two apart or there might be night and day differences.

Basically in SASS you can shoot modern single action revolvers like Ruger Blackhawks but you can't shoot any double ation revolver even if it is pre 1900.  In SASS there is less emphasis on authentic attire.

NCOWS has four gun classes [2 pistols, 1 rifle & 1 shotgun] as well as two gun classes [1 pistol & 1 rifle].  All of the SASS shooting classes (and there are a lot of them.) require four guns.

In NCOWS you can shoot any pre-1900 firearm with very few exceptions.  This includes DAs.  Reproductions of period arms are excetable as long as the markedly resemble pre 1900 arms.  Ones attire should also be pre 1900.
(No snap front western shirts, zippers, etc.)

At the National level It might be like comparing a completely restored 1947 chevy pick-up to the vehicles that they call pick-ups that are raced like NASCAR.  Both are pretty neat but very different.

I sure somebody will jump in here and improve on my attempt, but that's the basics as I see them.

Books

[Marshal Halloway]

The main difference from SASS is that NCOWS attracts members with a higher level of historical authenticity in weapons and clothing.

While SASS reach a wider group of people allowing a few more types of non authentic firearms and their opening for B-Western style outfits, NCOWS is comprised of members with an overall higher level of authenticity and knowledge of the Old West.

SASS vs NCOWS is not a question about who is the best. There is no general answer to that question, simply because each individual has to decide which level he wants to participate in and then choose among the options available.

There is plenty of room for both organizations and no ground for a competition between them.

NCOWS, SASS and W3G serve the needs out there and give us all more than enough ground and options to play on.

For more information about NCOWS on our site, click here.

See also our reference guide:

                                                                                       

QUICK REFERENCE CAS GUIDE:
SASS	NCOWS	W3Gun
Introduction	Introduction	Introduction
Affiliated clubs	Affiliated clubs
Events	Events	Events
Forum	Forum

[Will Ketchum]

My SASS number is life 4222 and my NCOWS number is Life 133 so I have been around for awhile.  As a life member of both organizations I'll try to explain it as I see it.

Let's first start with each groups origins.  SASS was started when some of the Wild Bunch were at a IPSC match and thought it would be a hoot to shoot the same type of match with Old West type guns.  To simplify it they did and SASS was born.  Somewhat later, perhaps inspired by reading about End of Trail a group of Buck Skinners in Iowa thought it would be fun to move forward about 30 years from the fur trade era that they were reenacting and to do the same with the Old West.  They had a meeting and were just going to call themselves the "Congress of Old West Shootists" .  Some one had the idea to add "National"  and so it became the "National Congress of Old West Shootists".

From this brief history we can see that each group had different motivations for statring their organizations.  One being IPSC style matches with cowboy guns and the other being Buck Skinning type get togethers with an emphasis on historical accuracy, where they did some shooting with old style pre 1900 guns of many sorts.

Since at the time I got interested in CAS I was doing both IPSC and Buck Skinning I kind of had an idea what was involved with both groups.  Having been at buck skinning rendezvous with some of the founding members I knew a little more about NCOWS than SASS which I had read about in "Guns & Ammo" magazine.  I joined both groups as a annual member although there were no clubs of either closer that 200 miles.  My first shoots were unaffiliated put on by a local IPSC club.  I had a great time.

Some detractors of NCOWS think that they have a bunch of stitch counting clothing police that inspect shooters before every match.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  In the decade plus of participating  in NCOWS gatherings I have never seen anyone turned away because they didn't measure up.  NCOWS doesn't allow certain things that SASS does such as short stoke kits on guns and slides for shotgun shells.  This is because in spite of much research no one could find any historical evidence of them existing.  NCOWS actually is much less restrictive than SASS when it comes to firearms. Since, as Books said, any pre 1900 gun is allowed.  This not only includes double action revolvers like the Colt 1878 or the S&Ws but swingout cylinders on early Colts and ejectors on shotguns.  Since SASS is more concerned with competition than NCOWS.  those type of things would provide an advantage over more traditional guns.

The founders of SASS had a great idea when the came up with the "Spirit of the Game" concept.  Many of us find that the most important rule they ever came up with.  Over the past several years some of the Wild Bunch, such as Tex have expressed their concerns with what they see as an equipment race.  It is human nature to want to try to improve one's equipment so they can perform at the highest level their skill will allow.  Highly modified guns will never make an average shooter a champion.  It takes natural skill and much practise to get to that level.

In NCOWS the founders wanted to experience what their 19th Century forefathers did in shooting the guns the way they were originally manufactured.  Since this is the emphasis the equipment race experienced in SASS has been less so in NCOWS.

Now are there inconsistencies in both groups?  Of course.  NCOWS allows Ruger Vaqueros (but not the Bisley model) which of course are a 20th Century design.  This is because at the time NCOWS was formed there just weren't that many good Colt clones around.  NCOWS also allows the use of smokeless powder because there were some available prior to 1900.  SASS has some inconsistencies also.  They don't allow swingout cylinders although they are historically correct but they allow break open guns like the Schofield which also give a competitive advantage over a single action Colt. 

Both groups are great.  They both want their members to have a safe, fun experience.  One isn't better than the other they just have different emphasis.  I wouldn't want to be without either organization and I am proud to be an ambassador for each.
I can't say if he still is but Harper Craig (Judge Roy Bean) use to be a member of NCOWS.  The Wild bunch has contributed firearms as door prices at past NCOWS national shoots.  I would venture to ay that most of the founding members of NCOWS are also SASS members and I know that many of the current board are.

Some people always want to cause problems by cutting down one group or another.  There is no reason for that type of pot stirring.  The world of Western and Cowboy Shooting is large enough for everyone.  Still I am sure that someone will try to make this thread into a mud fest.

Will Ketchum, Moderator of the NCOWS board on CAS City

[Gold Canyon Kid]

One groupl SASS is a world wide operation with shooters in many countries and every state in the US.  In fact most sates have many SASS clubs.  Other cowboy shooting organizations have much smaller memberships and clubs in only a few states. SASS conducts state championships in every state (might be an exception but I am not aware of it), several regional championships, a US national championship and a world championship match.  Other organizations have large matches but not nearly as many. I am not saying bigger is better, just information for the poster.

[Will Ketchum]

A couple of things I forgot to mention is that NCOWS is governed by a membership elected congress and is non-profit.  SASS is ran by the Wild Bunch as a for profit business.

Again this doesn't make one better than the other just something one should know.

Everything in NCOWS is done by volunteers.  There is no paid permanent staff so it can be a bit of a chore to get information when one needs it. 

We are trying to improve that with the web site but that to is updated by a volunteer who has a business to run.

Both organizations have a publication.  SASS the Cowboy Chronicle which use to be published 4 times a year and then went to every other month, I believe and now is monthly.  It is put together by a paid staff and has many advertisers.  The NCOWS magazine is "The Shootist" which is suppose to come out every 2 months but is at least two editions behind.  We have been assured by the volunteer editor that all the problems have been corrected and we should be getting a package of 2 magazines shortly.  One would have judge for themselves as to which is the better publication, but I would vote for the NCOWS version.

Will Ketchum

[O.T. Buchannan]

I am a member of NCOWS, and have been now for going on ten years.  In fact, I write for 'The Shootist', and I've done so steadily since 1998.  I have a column in 'The Shootist' entitled 'Authenticity Corner'. 

My background involves both shooting, and Living History.  I used to do Civil War reenacting, but now, outside of my Old West interests, my focus is on the Colonial era.  With that in mind, when I first joined NCOWS (after hearing of NCOWS emphasis on authenticity), I expected it to be 'hard core', with inspections and stitch police and the like.  I went to my first event, fully prepared with hidden documentation in my saddlebags, and an attitude!!!  I was READY for a challenge!!!  I fully expected someone to approach me and tell me that this part of my outfit, or that part wasn't correct, and I was ready!!!...

Well, as it turns out, I could have left my documentation and attitude at home....nobody challenged me on anything...and in fact, I didn't hear or see ANYONE get challenged on ANYTHING.  The 'stitch police' and all of the hype I heard turned out to be a myth..........

Instead, I found a bunch of warm, friendly folks, and boy, did they have the neatest guns!!!!!  I saw one fellow, who I used to do Civil War reenacting with.  In addition to his Henry, he was shooting two Walker Colts...one was percussion, and the other was a Conversion!  Another had a beautiful, refurbished S&W #3 American....nickle plated, ivory grips, .44 American calibre, 8 inch barrel, and he was nice enough to let me shoot it!  I saw another guy with two custom made R&D (Kenny Howell) Colts....a TRUE Richards, and an Open Top...both in .44 Colt calibre.  At the time, I was shooting two original #3 Smith & Wessons....a New Model #3, and a 2nd. Model Russian, both in .44 Russian calibre.

Since that time, I've shot a variety of firearms at NCOWS matches....percussion 1860 Colts and Starr Self-Cocking Army revolvers, converted Navy Colts (one of which is by Kenny Howell, a 2nd. generation Colt 1861 Navy), converted 1860s, Open Tops, converted Dragoons....my Henry, my 66, and of course, my original Spencer in .56-50 calibre is right at home.  Oh, my pocket pistol is a Webley RIC, in .450 Adams calibre....yes, this is legal under NCOWS guidelines.  I'm currently working on an 'Avenging Angel' Colt 1860, that I intend to use.

Will Ketchum posted above, but didn't tell you that he shoots original #3 Smiths, and that he also shoots a Merwin Hulbert.  I guess you all can see that for me, this beautiful array of Old West iron is a big draw, but NCOWS has a lot to offer....

Many of our members are also SASS members, and shoot utilizing the basic 4 gun format, but for those that wish it, we also have 2 gun classes.....

For those who are more competitive with their shooting, you would find such members among our ranks.  For those of us who are more concerned with how well some of the truly old designs worked (as opposed to whether or not we can actually win something with them), again, you would find yourself right at home.
For clothing, you could easily operate at a minimum, basic level, and you would NOT come  under any scrutiny for it, but for those who wish to go further with their dress and Persona, well, NCOWS has something for you too!  For those wishing further information on dress, there is a three part series on the NCOWS website that goes into further detail, and if anyone has any questions regarding this, please feel very free to pm or email me for more details.

I say all of this as someone who has been involved in CAS/WAS for 17 years or so, and who has been a blackpowder shooter for 23 years.  I've participated in un-affiliated CAS matches, and I spent several years as a SASS member as well.  I believe that each organization has something of value to ALL shooters:  SASS puts an emphasis on shooting first, and authenticity second, whereas NCOWS puts an emphasis on authenticity first, and shooting second.  As has been stated in earlier posts, many have simply elected to join BOTH organizations.

Once again, if anyone has any questions regarding NCOWS, please feel very free to contact me.....

THANKS!           

[Delmonico]

As OT said, he is a regular writer for The Shootist as are several others here on CAS-City, I as most know, am the Moderator of Cosie's Corner here on Cas-City and write the "From the Chuckwagon" column and Lone Gunman another member here on Cas-City is our editor. 

[Major Matt Lewis]

I really like the camping aspects of NCOWS.  The crew I shoot with here in Kansas like to pitch tents so there is not just the shooting portion of the event.  I got so excited that I bought a tent and will eventually get around to using it.  To me, NCOWS just isn't about the shooting, it's about an open campfire, the clean are and good people.

Now, I am also a SASS Life Member and could go on about the positives of SASS.  I look at them as equally good, fulfilling different needs.  At NCOWS matches, I try to force myself to slow down and relax.  I also really enjoy the competitive aspects of shooting that SASS espouses.  But do not get the impression that the folks in NCOWS can't shoot, because that is DEFINATELY not the case.  I reckon, you have to experience both to truly get what I am talking about.  I highly recommend doing both if possible.

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy MVM,

There is one NCOWS posse in California.  It is the Hat Creek Regulators and Joss House who moderates the BOSS board is a member and also the NCOWS Deputy.  If you go to the NCOWS Web Site  www.ncows.org and click on the posse page you will find contact info.  You can also find the approved and non-approved list of firearms there.

Both organizations are made up of good friendly folks and lots of NOCWS members are shooting first and clothing/equipment second!  We don't allow buscadero rigs because they are Hollyweird from the early 20th Century.  But the minimum clothing requirements are easy to meet.

I know that you will feel welcome at either one.  Both organizations emphasize being safe and having fun!

[Trap]

M.V.M.
  The answers you received on NCOWS are exellent. I can only add that if you are too far from the Hat Creek bunch, it's easy to start an NCOWS posse. And I'm sure you could find people who would be interested. Like Books said , you can make your posse what you want it to be within NCOWS rules which actually are very liberal (sorry to use the term).           jt

[James Hunt]

I initially got involved in NCOWS because I saw an ad using a picture OT Buchanann (who posted about) that looked alot like the real thing to me. You see my first interest was in the history of the old west, my second interest was shooting blackpowder guns. Since I have found that NCOWS is the perfect venue for my interest. While I have done the four gun thing, I actually prefer the two gun matches. Since my primary interest is in history, I shoot a repro Henry, and either an original Colt SAA circa 1876 or more recently an original Remington New Model Army circa (probably) 1864. I also get to shoot a 1862 pocket police conversion (circa 1873 -74) in the pocket gun category if I wish. As you can guess they use the little hand on a pocket watch when I shoot. But I have a great time, I have never felt any pressure to blaze away even by those in NCOWS who do blaze away! I am certainly not the only guy shooting original guns. I think that most of those who have posted above on occasion do use orignal arms.

I am a SASS member, have been for years. And there is a big SASS group here in Michigan. But believe it or not I never shot a SASS match until a few weeks ago when I went with another NCOWS member because he shoots there quite a bit. It was a good time. And I can understand why they enjoy a little less authenticity. I saw several work a SAA faster than I have ever used a 1911! Very impressive!!

But I guess I get most of my excitement from CMSA. Their clothing requirements are pretty miminal as far as history goes, but the excitement from shooting off of a running horse goes beyond words!!!!!! So I guess I know where the fast shooting SASS guy's are coming from and can appreciate that. It must be a ton of fun for them.

I am glad that I live in a country where you can not only shoot guns, you can own and shoot alot of them in many different ways. As such we are all in the same boat - protecting second amendment rights. Is this a great country or what!