"The Last Word On Blow Ups" - Not hardly!

[RRio]

There is an article in the November 2006 issue of the Cowboy Chronical that I feel I must take issue with. The synopsis of the article basically lays the blame of gun blow ups on the reduced-power trigger/bolt springs such as the Heinie, Wolf, and piano-wire types that are used so much in SAA type guns, nowadays in our sport.

It is in my opinion, that if you want to overlook under or over charged cartridges, and place the blame on the mechanical aspects of the revolver, then the first thing you need to be looking at is the timing of the bolt to the approach notch on the cylinder.

I do not care what type of spring is being used, whether it be the stock flat spring or the piano-wire spring, if your timing of the bolt drop is off, neither of those springs are going to correct an out of battery condition. The correct timing of the bolt drop should as the attached diagram shows.

Also attached are excerpts out of the "Troubleshooting Guide" from Jerry Kuhnhausen's The Colt Single Action Revolvers - A Shop Manual, Volumes 1 & 2 . Pretty much blows his theory out of the water.

[Irish Dave]

RR:
I see your point and it's an important one, but would only add that I have several perfectly timed revolvers (Colts and clones) that behave exactly as the CC article described when using the piano wire springs. I have long since removed them and replaced them with traditional stronger flat springs and have never had the throwby problem with any of them again.

I agree we need to look at all aspects, but my opinion is that the CC article is on to something.

[Pettifogger]

I don't know that I totally agree with the CC article.  However, even with guns with perfect cylinder timing as shown on your diagrams, the problem is that is "perfect" timing for a gun shot in a normal fashion.  With shooters using two hands they are shooting the guns far faster than anyone in the 1800's even thought possible.  I have several revolvers that even though timed as shown in the diagram will over rotate if shot with two hands and using piano wire springs.  The problem goes away with a flat spring.  I usually shoot duelist so I use a lot of piano wire springs.  However, even shooting duelist I have noticed that, for example, my 1872 Open Tops do not like piano wire springs and will over rotate.  Bottom line is to carefully check your guns as each varies a lilttle because of manufacturing tolerances.  What works on one gun might not work on another of the same make and model.

[RRio]

I don't know that I totally agree with the CC article.  However, even with guns with perfect cylinder timing as shown on your diagrams, the problem is that is "perfect" timing for a gun shot in a normal fashion.  With shooters using two hands they are shooting the guns far faster than anyone in the 1800's even thought possible.  I have several revolvers that even though timed as shown in the diagram will over rotate if shot with two hands and using piano wire springs.  The problem goes away with a flat spring.  I usually shoot duelist so I use a lot of piano wire springs.  However, even shooting duelist I have noticed that, for example, my 1872 Open Tops do not like piano wire springs and will over rotate.  Bottom line is to carefully check your guns as each varies a lilttle because of manufacturing tolerances.  What works on one gun might not work on another of the same make and model.

Not too sure. I just finished a pair of new Rodeos with the stock springs that was experiancing throw-by, but the timimg was a shade off. But, you have provided me with a lot of food for thought. Thinking back, of all the guns I have tuned (and that's a lot), most all of the owners were one-handed (duelist type) shooters, and I have never heard of any problems or had any come back.

I was told by a nationally recognized pistolsmith back in the Fast Draw days and before I started working on SAAs (started doing them in 1978), that a SAA had to be setup different to be able to handle the rigors of Fast Draw. I am wondering if this isn't true of the off-hand cocking of CAS.

It also makes me wonder if Ruger owners have the problem of throw by?

This will now give me a chance to do some experimenting with flat springs, that I have wanted to do for a while.

RR:
I see your point and it's an important one, but would only add that I have several perfectly timed revolvers (Colts and clones) that behave exactly as the CC article described when using the piano wire springs. I have long since removed them and replaced them with traditional stronger flat springs and have never had the throwby problem with any of them again.

I agree we need to look at all aspects, but my opinion is that the CC article is on to something.

Do you shoot two handed, cocking with the off thumb?


Thanks for the replies, pards! 

[Deacon Will]

This is my opinion..... with thousands of revolvers being used in our sport and thousands of different loads available in infinite variables, there will never be a 'last' word.  The variables that come into play such as primers (even between production lots), powders, cases and bullets places the potential results in the realm of infinite.... not to mention environment, temp, humidity and shock.

I have witnessed a new single action get destroyed with the top strap and part of the cylinder sent out as shrapnel..... and an older Colt Kaboom as well.   Both were being shot one handed Duelist style.

Metal fatigue can also be a culprit.  I picked up a brand new in the box single action at a regional match two years ago that was offered for sale by a dealer/distributor.  Upon examination, I detected a small crack in the brand new factory fresh frame rendering it unsafe (at least in my opinion).

I don't think we will ever see/agree on THE last word in gun blow-ups...... as long as there are components, firearms and assemblers willing to devise the vast combinations of components in different shooting environments with different firearms, results will vary.  Each incident must be scrutinized on it's own merit(s).  With part of the firearm destroyed or missing, it is very difficult to get a True set of facts or standards, unless done in a labatory setting such as the White Labs.... and that really only applies to that firearm and componets at that particulair time. 

[Irish Dave]

Do you shoot two handed, cocking with the off thumb?

Yep.

It also makes me wonder if Ruger owners have the problem of throw by?

Can't speak for others, but I've never had a throwby problem with the Vaqueros. But I've always used the stock bolt springs in them which are pretty stout.

[Pettifogger]

One big reason Rugers don't have problems with over rotation is the infamous line around the cylinder.  The bolt on a Ruger drops almost immediately and drags all the way around the cylinder.  Remember USFA introduced the completion cylinder leade groove which went about half-way around the cylinder betweenn each chamber.  They used to have a picture on their web site, but since SASS said it was an illegal external mod, USFA seems to have dropped the idea.

[Whiskey Hayes]

The CC article does bring up some valuable points, but like everyone says sure isn't the last word.  Rawhide your point about the guns being out of time is the most valuable.  True the wire spring could have caused the timing problem but a Colt can be tuned to operate with them and more than likely if it was in time with the flat spring it would be in time with the wire spriing.  I can see a wire spring making an existing timing problem more obvious.  I do know that the wire springs need to be changed out because they weaken with age.  They don't just break.

Whether the action job created the timing problem or the gun was already out of time we will never know.  Whether the out of time condition or cartridge or plugged throat caused the blow up we'll never know.

What we should take from the article is everyone should be able to check their on guns for proper operation and do so often, even if you just got it back from the top smith in the world.  You don't have to know how to fix the problem just recognize it.  Its in our hand when it goes kaboom.

I personally don't think the guns should be repaired.  If a gun has suffered a blowup I wouldn't want to shoot it after repair.  If it were mine I wouldn't have it repaired.  The metal has been strained to much.  I wonder how many of the kaboomers have been repaired and sold.

[Wild Ben Raymond]

Howdy! I would like to share my experance with the wire springs in my USFA's. I bought 2 USFA premium single action's custom ordered to my specks. After getting them & shooting them as they were for a short time, I ordered a set of gunfighter springs (wire trigger/bolt springs) with a lighter hour-glass type main springs. After installing them, I noticed a differance that the guns were a bit smoother, easier to cock, lighter trigger pull and timing was still good, I was pleased. A few broken hand springs later, I changed the guns to use the coil type springs instead. Now I was happy because I was sure I now had trouble free pistols. Fast forward a year later, I had just read the articial in the Nov. Cowboy Chronical & like a day or two later I was doing some dry-firing practice & notcied the cylinder not turning correctly on one of my pistols. Well checking it out found that the bolt on that gun was not coming back up to stop the cylinder rotation (kind of stoped up aganist the inside of the frame). So I disassembled the revolver but the spring was not broke, so maybe it had become week, then I tweaked it (bent it) a little to but more pressure on the bolt. Reassembled the gun but no change, still did it, so I put the original flat springs in both guns and guess what? they worked just fine. The down side is flat springs tend to break also the trigger pull went up (not what I'm used to) so I tried thining down the trigger side of the flat spring(s) to reduce this and it worked. Only time will tell if this set up will hold up but I will suggest if your are using wire springs CHECK THEM! It might be a good idea to replace them once a year. I will stay with my modified flat springs untill someone can come out with a better wire replacement type spring. One that will put as much pressure on the bolt as a flat spring but has the same lighter pressure typical of wire springs for the trigger pull. Just thought I'd share my experance with wire springs. Wild Ben Raymond           

[RRio]

The down side is flat springs tend to break also the trigger pull went up (not what I'm used to) so I tried thining down the trigger side of the flat spring(s) to reduce this and it worked. Only time will tell if this set up will hold up but I will suggest if your are using wire springs CHECK THEM! It might be a good idea to replace them once a year. I will stay with my modified flat springs untill someone can come out with a better wire replacement type spring. One that will put as much pressure on the bolt as a flat spring but has the same lighter pressure typical of wire springs for the trigger pull. Just thought I'd share my experance with wire springs. Wild Ben Raymond           

I'm doing some experimentating (my word  ) on the flat springs to make them more durable, myself right now, and will keep everyone posted on my results.

[Wild Ben Raymond]

Howdy! I was once told by an old gunsmith & 1973 fastdraw champ that if you seperate or cut the spring where the arms (trigger portion & hand portion of the spring) come together and into the screw hole. The Hand & Trigger will work more independly & less likely to break. I do believe the Italians copys allready do this to their springs but Colt & USFA do not. WBR   

[Delmonico]

Makes sense to me, it eliminates a place that gets strained in moving.

[RRio]

Howdy! I was once told by an old gunsmith & 1973 fastdraw champ that if you seperate or cut the spring where the arms (trigger portion & hand portion of the spring) come together and into the screw hole. The Hand & Trigger will work more independly & less likely to break. I do believe the Italians copys allready do this to their springs but Colt & USFA do not. WBR   

All the old gunsmiths and Fast Draw champs that I know ( James & Munden) use wire springs of their own manufacture, like I do. The diameter of my piano wire springs I believe are a little larger than the Heinie or Wolff springs.

[Wild Ben Raymond]

Rawhide, I don't know if Ed used wire springs or flat one's while he competed in fastdraw.(I wouldn't know if they had wire springs in 1973) It was just a tip he told me on how to make the flat springs last longer. Ed Eldridge of the Brass Action gun shop is a gunsmith, Tool & Die maker/machineist and a former standin for movies when they did closeup's for fancy six-gun handling, besides at one time winning the fastdraw championship in 1973 he is also know's how to work a bull whip. Ed also makes those replacement loading gates for the 66' rifles. I believe Brownlles sells them but they buy them from him. WBR
P.S. Hope you come up with a better spring like the one I discribed in my previous post.     

[Deacon Will]

Rawhide, I don't know if Ed used wire springs or flat one's while he competed in fastdraw.(I wouldn't know if they had wire springs in 1973) It was just a tip he told me on how to make the flat springs last longer. Ed Eldridge of the Brass Action gun shop is a gunsmith, Tool & Die maker/machineist and a former standin for movies when they did closeup's for fancy six-gun handling, besides at one time winning the fastdraw championship in 1973 he is also know's how to work a bull whip. Ed also makes those replacement loading gates for the 66' rifles. I believe Brownlles sells them but they buy them from him. WBR
P.S. Hope you come up with a better spring like the one I discribed in my previous post.     

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Remember reading an in depth study on Colt springs once.  Springs broke and Colt made them bigger/thicker to stop breakage.  Seems the problems were lessened when the springs were highly polished thereby relieving stress risers and potential crack starting points.  I have been polishing my springs ever since in all of my firearms.  Since doing this, I have never had a broken spring or failure.  This may have been luck, but I prefer to believe it was preparedness on my part.  Reliability is the NUMBER 1 concern in a firearm....competition wise, hunting or self defense.  This doesn't mean I don't change springs occasionally though and keep extras on hand.  My main match pistols (for my wife and me) are Rugers.  I have never had one go down as of yet and don't expect to have as they are cleaned and inspected after each match.  I do have a battery of Colts to choose from... but have decided they are to valuable to break and they are in the "collection."  Shooting the lead bullets and 'loads' we shoot in our sport, the Rugers should last another 25 + years.  By then I will retire at the top of my game at the age of 90 : )

[RRio]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Remember reading an in depth study on Colt springs once.  Springs broke and Colt made them bigger/thicker to stop breakage.  Seems the problems were lessened when the springs were highly polished thereby relieving stress risers and potential crack starting points.  I have been polishing my springs ever since in all of my firearms.  Since doing this, I have never had a broken spring or failure. 

This is pretty much the angle that I am experimenting with. I can remember being told by Bob James, that the reason he polished and radi-ed the edge of the mainsprings was to take out the microscopic cracks that would be formed when the mainspring were punched out on the press. I started doing the same thing and never had a broken mainspring, or one returned, because of it. My way of thinking is that the bolt spring is the same type of material and punched out on a press, also, so it should work on them as well.
I have a gun that I am going to try this on and use in matches, so I will be able to give status reports on how it holds up.

[Irish Dave]

I believe the stress riser point is valid.

I have had the same pair of radiused and polished trigger/bolt springs (did the work myself when I got the guns) in a pair of excellent Cimarrons that were my main match revolvers for about 4 years (except for a brief affair with Heinie piano wire that turned out badly) with no breakage or noticeable weakening during that time. Never had such luck before I started doing that. I bought Colt replacement springs (refuse to use the junk the Italians pass off as springs), polished and radiused the inside and outside egdes, top and bottom also, got rid of any stress risers and the springs are still going strong (even though the Cimarrons only rarely get used these days as my MM guns.

I do the same with the mainsprings (generally after thinning as well) and have never had one of those polished rascals break -- most have been in their revolvers for years.

Have done this will all my Colts and clones. Can't remember the last time I broke a spring.
The Rugers, of course, don't have the same problems.

[Hemlock Mike]

I've had a couple old revolvers which had lock-up problems because of the bolt (spring or timing).
Typically, they fail to fire because the fireing pin is also out of time.  My few times they fired "out of time", all I got was some excess shavings come out.  The anvil in modern primers presents a rather small area to go bang.

Mike

[ML Roak]

IMHO most blow-ups are probably ammo related, either 2X or 3X powder charges, or multiple projectiles in one case.  If your cocking the gun fast enough to get throw-by, most of the time it will index to the next chamber (inertia).
Like I said, JMO.
ML

"what is best in life? To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women".

[RRio]

I've had a couple old revolvers which had lock-up problems because of the bolt (spring or timing).
Typically, they fail to fire because the fireing pin is also out of time.  My few times they fired "out of time", all I got was some excess shavings come out.  The anvil in modern primers presents a rather small area to go bang.

Mike

I have had that happen also. Did some figurin' with the dimenstions of a large pistol primer, RNFP bullet, etc. and the water flow theory, and really doubt that the spring is the cause of blowups. More likely improperly reloaded ammo or obstruction in the barrel. In my opinion, the author of that article in the CC is just flat wrong.