30-30 with black

[jwinks]

I've got a buddy that wants me to help cast some bullets and then load them in a 30-30 using black. Anybody ever try it? What about the wad to protect the base? I've never loaded a bottleneck case with black. Can it even be done. Thanks, Jwinks

[Fox Creek Kid]

One rational question: why? 

[Delmonico]

Makes more sense than climbin' Mt. Everest, yet folks do that all the time.

[litl rooster]

 I was hoping to get out and pick up some Dies this weekend to do the same thing.  Why I'm bored............with the Heathen loads.

[Delmonico]

Never know till ya try, but heck if the gun writers don't write about it some folks ain't curious enough to find things out fer fun on their own.  It ain't like ya asked what a full case a Bullseye would do in a 30-30.

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings!

    Recall that prior to 1915, when Winchester was selling reloading tools, the Company discouraged reloaders from using smokeless powders, recommending in stead the use of BP. I cannot recall where I saw Winchester's warning, but an early Ideal Handbook repeats Winchester's misgivings, and discussed BP loads in the .25-35, .30-30, .303 Sav, etc. One of the last "Ideal Handbook" reprints from Wolfe Pub. contains this information.
   I can see no reason for not assembling "midrange" reloads for these shells; this seems to have been popular around the turn of those centuries, especially the .32 Win Spl./ Marlin .32 HP. I had at one time wanted to find a '94 in .32 Win.Spl to try this, but now... Only if I stumble upon a "bargain" {Whatever that may be...!}.
   I've read in either BPCR or Single Shot Exchange magazine, that between 85% and 100% BP loading density proved to work well in the big BP cartridges; however, A.C.Gould drop-tubed and compressed BP into Express cartridges that he was experimenting with. I'd try a wheel weight bullet with BP drop-tubed to the base of the bullet, and experiment with greater or lesser powder compression.
   Gents, according to resurfacing vintage literature that's riding the coat-tails of this new BP Renaissance, this is nothing new; I'm sure that smokeless gave a lot of folks the jitters, and they elected to try the good old familiar BP.

   Keep Us Posted!

               Be Well, All!

                                  M.T.Marfield
                                    11-24-06
   

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Maybe the gunwriters don't talk about BP in the .30-30, but they do talk about the .32 Special.  I just received my RIFLE mag, and there it was.  Not totally positive either.  The writer still got the fouling problems that apparently discouraged .30-30 shooters from using Black.  I have a photo of my Father as a trapper in northern Saskatchewan in 1932.  Long barreled '94 .32 Spl over his knee, complete with the "ski-jump" backsight.

[Delmonico]

If you need a wad cutter, just take a steel 7.62X39 Case and champher it to a sharp edge with a champhering tool.  Cut the back end off to allow the wads to come out.  May not last as long as a good arch punch, but these are free.   Remember the Brit 303 was black powder for a couple of years after it was introduced.

[Noz]

I try to get either a gas checked bullet or a lube cookie under the bullet and go for it.  I've never been convinced of the need for the magnums.

[Four-Eyed Buck]

IIRC, Venturino was working on this some years back. He reported on the 30-30 and the 44-77. It's been quite awhile, but seem to remember that he wasn't having a lot of success at the tme the article was published................Buck

[St. George]

The lack of success is probably because the round was never designed for black powder - as smokeless is more efficient in the necked case.

It was the first American small-bore smokeless powder round - this , according to Barnes' 'Cartridges of the World'.

The original loading - in 1895 - was a 165 grain soft-point bullet, over 30 grains of smokeless - with a muzzle velocity of 1970 fps.

As to the .303 British - though it was initially a black powder load upon introduction in 1888 - Empire-wide as issued to Her Majesty's Forces - it changed to smokeless in 1892 - with US production beginning in 1897.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Delmonico]

A heavy bullet is going to have a better chance than a light one also.

[Four-Eyed Buck]

If you're using lead, a 170 or 173 is the heaviest available. Some barrels like the heavier ones, some like 150's. Depends on the rifle.................Buck

[Delmonico]

RCBS has a 180 Flat-nose.

[litl rooster]

  Thanks Del, I thought there was couple companies producing a 180 grain.

[Hell-Er High Water]

On page 9, here in The Darksider's Den, Dick Dastardly talks about using BP in an 8MM-06.  It is under the thread "Using Smokeless Lube Bullets".

You might check this out and see if somthing similar will work in the 30-30.

HHW

[w44wcf]

Hell-Er High Water,

Good article by DD.  Thank you for the link.

Fellow pards,
Well, there are better calibers for black powder, but with the right components (critical) it can be made to work as reloaders of the late 1800's early 1900's have found.

Interestingly, Marlin's 1897 catalog does indicate that in addition to reloading with smokeless powder, blackpowder could be used in the .30-30.

HOWEVER, blackpowder back in the late 1890's was highly refined, designed to burn with a moist and minimum residuum resulting in minimal fouling.  Swiss b.p. is the powder of choice to closely replicate those b.p.'s of a bi gone era.

Early .30-30 cast bullet designs illustrated in the same 1897 catalog were multi grooved to hold a lot of lube, similar to the Loverin style bullets introduced in the 1950's. I have used the 150 gr. Loverin and an LBT 160 gr. bullet for b.p. loads in my .30-30's. Both hold more than enough  b.p. lubricant.

With 44 grs. by weight of Swiss 3F, I have achieved 1 1/2" groups at 50 yards. Groups with smokeless powder run about 1/2 of that. Velocity with this load actually reaches 1,600 f.p.s. making it an "Express" cartridge by 1890's definition. 


Fuunnn!

w44wcf

[litl rooster]

besides the post of DD's I thought about a year ago there was one on BP and .30-30 loads. I looked a few weeks ago and couldn't locate it.  I want to experiment with it. I might not like the results but I might like it...........who knows

[w44wcf]

litl rooster,

I want to experiment with it.

That's a great reason to do it. Inquiring minds like ours want to know these things.
That was the same logic I used when I tested the .30-30 on black a few years ago.

On a separate note....... The 180 R.C.B.S. bullet is regulated for Linotype alloy. My Mold drops bullets at 180 grs. in Linotype, and 190 grs. in wheelweight alloy.

I did try that bullet on the .30-30 initially.  I was using a compressed load of Goex FFFG powder and SPG lube.  A 10 shot group @ 50 yards ran about 4"....... not too impressive.  Velociy was around 1,450 f.p.s.

I haven't tried that bullet with Swiss yet, (didn't have any at the time I tested it) but I have no doubt that it would perform better. 

As I mentioned, the 150 gr. Lyman "Loverin" bullet (311466) holds lots of lube and worked just fine with Swiss.

Have fun,
w44wcf

[litl rooster]

  Thanks all for the input...............

jwinks sorry for hijackin' your thread.