.44 Cal. Ball Size

[Sgt. Manse Jolly]

It has been a long time since I was shooting a .44 Cap & Ball pistol. I have a Pietta .44 cal 1860 Colt and I was wondering what ball diameter most of you shoot. I see them from .451 to .458 diameter. This is a dumb question, but it has been 25-30 years since I shot these and I forgot the best diameter ball to shoot. Thanks in advance for the assistance.

[Mason Stillwell]

I shoot .454 in all my cap and ball guns including Roogers. Have you checked that chamber size of yer guns.
Remember if you shave a small ring of lead off the ball when seating it you are getting close

Mason

[Noz]

I bought Lee's .451 mold that throws a .454 ball that works with great goodness in my 1860s.

[44caliberkid]

   Pietta revolvers will handle a .451 just fine, although I cast .454 balls for most of my pistols. 

[Pukin Dog]

I bought some .451 once just 'cause they were clearanced at a great price.  My Pietta's come the closest to having them work, but I always slap some lube over them as they don't really shave any lead.

You'd probably be best off getting .454 size as they will generally work in both Pietta's and Ubertis (don't know about other brands so much)

[J.J. Ferrett]

454's will work good in the clones, but, I use the 457's just coz in my way of thinking, a larger 'lead ring' shaved off means that there is going to be more of a surface area that gets to bear on the rifling. OK, sometimes I believe that i need mr K Kong to seat these (especially on a dirty chamber) but, I aint gonna complain...

[Waya]

  First off, does anyone ever SLUG their barrel to measure the exact groove size ??

  Second, does anyone ever measure the exact chamber diameter at all ??

  See, it's been my experience that the chamber diameters are always SMALLER then the actual GROOVE diameter,,, and nomatter what ball size you buy/mould and shoot, you're not getting any acuracy if your bullet isn't filling out the GROOVES properly. All the grease in the world isn't gona help, reguardless. You buy/mould a certain size ball, and shove it into the chamber, and nomatter what size the ball was before you started, you're SHAVING lead so the ball fits the chambers of your cylinder, still, and you're totally ignoring the barrel diameter GROOVES.

  Not trying to piss anyone off, just calling attention to what I found out a long time ago from an Uncle who was a long time Gun Smith. I've been shooting BP since 1970. That dosn't mean I'm a 'Know It All',, it just means that I have alittle knowlege that was learned the hard way.

  I like shooting for ACCURACY, if that means anything !!!

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[Adirondack Jack]

Waya, please explain to me HOW, if the groove diameter is larger than the chamber diameter, it makes a hoot in heck of difference how much bigger the ball is, as it WILL be chamber size when loaded, and it WILL be barrel size when it OBDURATES as it is slammed into the forcing cone.  If yer shaving a ring enough to give a good seal, yer gonna have a good burn, and the whallop of a good burn is about like smacking a golf ball with a driver.  The ball gets plastic as it is smashed into the forcing cone and it WILL be BBL diameter.

Now, there are limits to this, so if the chamber is .451, and the BBL is .458, ain't nothin' gonna help ya.

[Howdy Doody]

I am with AJ on that. The good fitting ball into the chamber lessens the chance of flashover and a pure lead ball gets out of shape for sure. Fact is if you want to find your size of barrel, just take that pure lead ball and a dowel and tap it on thru. I have even heard of some folks wanting a nice 11 degree forcing cone on a C&B, but I never figured out why, as the ball is round in the first place. I would think that .454 is standard for .44 and 457 for .45 like a ruger. Yup and nice thin ring of lead after ramming is the ideal, especially for those that like to eliminate the mess of over ball lube.

[Noz]

If you are shooting "cowboy", then it doesn't make a nickles worth of sh-t what size the ball is as long as the front of the chamber is sealed. Obviously, if it is too small the ball will roll out and if it's too big you'll break the loading lever. I've shot 451, 454, and 457 out of Remingtons and now 1860 Piettas. Makes no difference at 7 yards on a 16" steel plate. If you want one hole accuracy, you probably need different guns.

[Adirondack Jack]

If you are shooting "cowboy", then it doesn't make a nickles worth of sh-t what size the ball is as long as the front of the chamber is sealed. Obviously, if it is too small the ball will roll out and if it's too big you'll break the loading lever. I've shot 451, 454, and 457 out of Remingtons and now 1860 Piettas. Makes no difference at 7 yards on a 16" steel plate. If you want one hole accuracy, you probably need different guns.

Naw, just send em out to one of them custom smiths and git em line bored and reamed to the .00001 inch, have balls swaged to the .000001 inch, weigh charges to the .001 grain, then use a tensiometer to load em all to the same compression to the .001 ounce, then when the timer goes off, ya can pull the cord on yer ransom rest and see how well the gun can print em all into one splash on the plate.

Oh, ya said COWBOY guns with a sight consisting of a wallow cut on top, loads dumped with a flask and held in the hand while the blood pumps through the veins and yer tryin' to hurry.  Yeah, that is another kettle of fish, ain't it?

[Waya]

Waya, please explain to me HOW, if the groove diameter is larger than the chamber diameter, it makes a hoot in heck of difference how much bigger the ball is, as it WILL be chamber size when loaded, and it WILL be barrel size when it OBDURATES as it is slammed into the forcing cone.  If yer shaving a ring enough to give a good seal, yer gonna have a good burn, and the whallop of a good burn is about like smacking a golf ball with a driver.  The ball gets plastic as it is smashed into the forcing cone and it WILL be BBL diameter.

Now, there are limits to this, so if the chamber is .451, and the BBL is .458, ain't nothin' gonna help ya.

  Jack,,,, I was talking about smaller CHAMBER sizes, opposed to LARGER Barrel Bores ( ie. GROOVES ). Get the picture now ??

  I never stated in my comment, anything about larger chambers/smaller boores and how time, money, and POWDER is wasted when you BOUNCE lead down the barrel of your weapon. Correct bullet size, being fired down a barrel reduces leading and foweling. Knowing the factory diameters of your lands and grooves, in conjunction with the diameter of your cylinder chambers has alot to do with ACCURACY.

  But if you just like LOBBING lead, be my guest. Theres NO accuracy in Lobbing !!!

.

[Waya]

  The following comes directly from my newly Mail Ordered, handy dandy Dixie Gun Catalog that's just chucked full of wonders and delight and pertinent info;

** All Tollerances are within + or - .001 **

Pietta/Italy 1860 .44 cal Army
Button Cut Rifling .003" deep with 1 - 32" Twist
.....7 Lands=.440 dia.
.....7 Grooves=.446 - .452
....Chamber Dia.=.446
Recommended Ball=.451
22 Gr. 3Fg


Pietta, .44 Rem. New Mod.
Button Cut Rifling .005" Deep with 1 - 32" Twist
.....7 Lands=.440
.....7 Grooves=.450
....Chamber Dia.=.445
Recommended Ball=.451
22 Gr. 3Fg

UBERTI .44 cal. Walker Mod. Colt
Button Cut Rifled .013" Deep with 1 - 48" Twist
.....7 Lands=.440
.....7 Grooves=.456
...Chamber Dia.=.449
Recommended Ball=.454
25 Gr. 3Fg

UBERTI 1st, 2nd & 3rd Mod. .44 Dragoons
Button Cut Rifling .008" Deep with 1 - 48" Twist
.....7 Lands=.440
.....7 Grooves=.456
...Chamber Dia.=.449
Recommended Ball=.454
22 Gr. 3Fg

UBERTI .44 Remington Army
Button Cut Rifling .010" Deep with 1 - 32" Twist
.....7 Lands=.440
....7Grooves=.460
Recommended Ball=.450
22 Gr. 3Fg

EUROARMS/Italy
Rogers & Spencer .44cal.
Button Cut Rifling .004" Deep with 1 - 21" Twist
.....6 Lands=.440
.....6 Grooves=.448
...Chamber Dia.=.449
Recommended Ball=.454
22 Gr. 3Fg


  All anyone has to do is the math. When a ball, no matter what size, is shoved into a chamber, and lead is shaved, the ball becomes the INSIDE DIAMETER of the Chamber.

If the Ball is fired down a barrel with a GROOVE DIAMETER larger then the SHAVED BALL in the chamber, you have NO accuracy, your BOUNCING lead down your barrel and getting BLOWBY of your powder, thereby wasting Powder and losing energy and velocity and sacrificing ACCURACY.
And your getting just boucoups of foweling and lead buildup.

  Now,,,, what's so hard to understand about all that !!! 

.

[Cuts Crooked]

  All anyone has to do is the math. When a ball, no matter what size, is shoved into a chamber, and lead is shaved, the ball becomes the INSIDE DIAMETER of the Chamber.

If the Ball is fired down a barrel with a GROOVE DIAMETER larger then the SHAVED BALL in the chamber, you have NO accuracy, your BOUNCING lead down your barrel and getting BLOWBY of your powder, thereby wasting Powder and losing energy and velocity and sacrificing ACCURACY.
And your getting just boucoups of foweling and lead buildup.

  Now,,,, what's so hard to understand about all that !!! 

Nothing Pard,

Except yer wrong about them "bouncing down bore".

You see, yer not figuring in the "slug up factor" wherein a powder charge going off behind a soft lead projectile causes it to deform under pressure, even after passing through the cylinder gap. "Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Clause" and yes a soft lead ball will slug up enough to fill the bore. It's not unusual for a ball to deform a couple of hundreths under the pressure of being fired. Which is why these guns can be surprizingly accurate in spite of the odd dimensions.

Admittedly, larger chambers can make a difference through. I have one 58 "Target Model" that was just plain lousy when it came to accuracy. I had the chambers reamed to .451 and started using .454 balls in it and it became a real tack driver. But I have two others that have the noted disparity b'tween the chambers and bore diameter and they both shoot great. Can't explain it, but that's the way it goes sumtimes.

[Sgt. Manse Jolly]

Waya,

Thanks for the information from the manufaturers! Mine is a Pietta and when I bought the revolver, I ordered several boxes of .451 dia. balls. One of the boxes was .454 and I did not notice until I was getting ready for a shoot. I was a bit concerned that the .454 dia. might give me problems with pressure, but from the information you guys have provided I don't think this will be a problem shooting one box anyway. Your help is appreciated.

[Waya]

Nothing Pard,

Except yer wrong about them "bouncing down bore".

You see, yer not figuring in the "slug up factor" wherein a powder charge going off behind a soft lead projectile causes it to deform under pressure, even after passing through the cylinder gap. "Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Clause" and yes a soft lead ball will slug up enough to fill the bore. It's not unusual for a ball to deform a couple of hundreths under the pressure of being fired. Which is why these guns can be surprizingly accurate in spite of the odd dimensions.

Admittedly, larger chambers can make a difference through. I have one 58 "Target Model" that was just plain lousy when it came to accuracy. I had the chambers reamed to .451 and started using .454 balls in it and it became a real tack driver. But I have two others that have the noted disparity b'tween the chambers and bore diameter and they both shoot great. Can't explain it, but that's the way it goes sumtimes.

  Yep,,,, I understand whatcher sayen, but give this alittle consideration,,,,, just exactly how much of the backside of your projectile is deforming ? I hazzard to guess that it's not too much, and that the greater majority of the projectile stays in it's original conformity through it's distance of travel ! So, you're not getting that much lead filling your barrel Grooves where it counts !!!

  I realise that you folks are shooting at close distances in your compititions,,, I'm not trying to make a mockery of your sport. Like I stated,, I shoot for accuracy, and I shoot at greater distances then ya'll do. Somewhere in the 25 to 30 yard range to 50 yard range. I practice at 50 yds. exclusively with a 2nd Gen. Colt's .36 Navy or a 2nd Gen. Walker. I use both for hunting,,, the Navy for taking Squirrels and Rabbits, and have used the Walker to take Javilina and deer !!

  The whole point of my original post, and the reasons I asked the questions, was # 1 to get ya'lls input and to stirr alittle thought, and # 2, to cause alittle thought about reaming cylinder chambers to match Bore and Groove Diameters for better and more accurate shooting, even at the close ranges that ya'll shoot. Wasn't trying to cause problems and i damned sure wasn't looking for any smart allecky comebacks like those of Adirondack Jack. Adirondack did cause me to chuckel just a tad, cos he kinda went to extremes there alittle. But I did overlook his comment and consider the source !!!

  Have a Plesant Evening and Week End, and Keep Yer Powder Dry

[Cuts Crooked]

  Yep,,,, I understand whatcher sayen, but give this alittle consideration,,,,, just exactly how much of the backside of your projectile is deforming ? I hazzard to guess that it's not too much, and that the greater majority of the projectile stays in it's original conformity through it's distance of travel ! So, you're not getting that much lead filling your barrel Grooves where it counts !!!

 

Tell ya what, try recovering some balls from the berm.........you'll be surprized! Lot's of deep rifling marks on them.

(BTW, I won every single pistol match I shot at muzzleloading events this year...with a stock 58 Pietta that has undersized chambers )

[Waya]

Tell ya what, try recovering some balls from the berm.........you'll be surprized! Lot's of deep rifling marks on them.

(BTW, I won every single pistol match I shot at muzzleloading events this year...with a stock 58 Pietta that has undersized chambers )

  That's commendable. Congrats on winning the events. How are ya at shooting at a respectable distance for revolvers ??

Can you take a regulation playing card, stick it sideways into a matchstem, and shoot it in half at 15 yds. ?  How bout snapshooting without using your sights, at flying objects  at that same distance or out to about 20 to 25 yards


  Just for fun, try it !!!

.

[Adirondack Jack]

  Yep,,,, I understand whatcher sayen, but give this alittle consideration,,,,, just exactly how much of the backside of your projectile is deforming ? I hazzard to guess that it's not too much, and that the greater majority of the projectile stays in it's original conformity through it's distance of travel ! So, you're not getting that much lead filling your barrel Grooves where it counts !!!

  I realise that you folks are shooting at close distances in your compititions,,, I'm not trying to make a mockery of your sport. Like I stated,, I shoot for accuracy, and I shoot at greater distances then ya'll do. Somewhere in the 25 to 30 yard range to 50 yard range. I practice at 50 yds. exclusively with a 2nd Gen. Colt's .36 Navy or a 2nd Gen. Walker. I use both for hunting,,, the Navy for taking Squirrels and Rabbits, and have used the Walker to take Javilina and deer !!

  The whole point of my original post, and the reasons I asked the questions, was # 1 to get ya'lls input and to stirr alittle thought, and # 2, to cause alittle thought about reaming cylinder chambers to match Bore and Groove Diameters for better and more accurate shooting, even at the close ranges that ya'll shoot. Wasn't trying to cause problems and i damned sure wasn't looking for any smart allecky comebacks like those of Adirondack Jack. Adirondack did cause me to chuckel just a tad, cos he kinda went to extremes there alittle. But I did overlook his comment and consider the source !!!

  Have a Plesant Evening and Week End, and Keep Yer Powder Dry

Ya know, Waya, when you misquoted my original post, where I talked about chambers smaller than GROOVE SIZE (seeing as that is what yer calling bore size) and you got on yer dang high horse with all the numbers and demeaned what I said, puitting inaccurate words in my mouth, I let all that go.

But to refer to me as a smart aleck when you go off half cocked after not reading what I wrote accurately, well that makes me wanna consider the source, if'n ya know what I mean.  Now, I'll ask you to re-read my original post and see if it isn't saying the same as Cuts said, and I'll accept yer apology for being unnecessarily rude.

[Waya]

Ya know, Waya, when you misquoted my original post, where I talked about chambers smaller than GROOVE SIZE (seeing as that is what yer calling bore size) and you got on yer dang high horse with all the numbers and demeaned what I said, puitting inaccurate words in my mouth, I let all that go.

But to refer to me as a smart aleck when you go off half cocked after not reading what I wrote accurately, well that makes me wanna consider the source, if'n ya know what I mean.  Now, I'll ask you to re-read my original post and see if it isn't saying the same as Cuts said, and I'll accept yer apology for being unnecessarily rude.

  How long can you hold your breath

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