Old time dyes: a How_to

Drayton Calhoun · November 26, 2011, 11:49:02 AM

That sounds like an outstanding idea Wadd! You can also put it on a low boil and not worry about it. Funny thing is, with the walnut dye, my wife actually likes the smell, says it smells like she's baking pies! Of course once I put the coffee into the mix, the smell changed somewhat...

WaddWatsonEllis · November 26, 2011, 07:22:05 PM

The nice thing about buying them that way is that they are (cheaply) dedicated crockpots, one for each dye ... and in the summer, just the crocks are put in the fridge with the dye ...

COACHE · December 14, 2011, 04:29:35 PM

I had someone give some give my whole walnuts. They are soft and mold on them, Can I still make dye with them or just throw them out

Coache

ChuckBurrows · December 14, 2011, 10:10:42 PM

Quote from: COACHE on December 14, 2011, 04:29:35 PM
I had someone give some give my whole walnuts. They are soft and mold on them, Can I still make dye with them or just throw them out

Coache

use them - they make a fine dye - I no longer use alcohol or anything else to keep my finished walnut or coffee dye from molding I just scrape the mold off the surface and use as is. One friend who has been using walnut dye for several decades just stirs the mold in and says it works even better as a dye.......

Drayton Calhoun · December 15, 2011, 12:04:59 AM

Ya know, that kinda makes sense. I gotta admit, though, it really depends on the leather more than anything. I dyed my wife's purse, Christmas present, came out kinda washed out brown. Did a gunbelt project from a piece of horsehide and it came out beautiful.

COACHE · December 15, 2011, 03:48:36 PM

Thanks guys

Hope you all have a Happy Holidays

Coache

Drayton Calhoun · December 17, 2011, 08:59:32 PM

Just finished a batch of coffee dye. Just over a gallon of very, very strong coffee reduced to about ten ounces. Comes out a nice medium/dark brown, depending on the leather. The walnut dye started to develop a light film of mold, even though I added alcohol and a bit of vinegar. That's okay, I'll just skim the mold and keep on using it. Going to start another batch of coffee. Wife saw Wadd's post about the thrift store crock pots and said "Go for it!" Seems she didn't mind the walnut cooking, but the coffee was a bit too much, LOL.

WaddWatsonEllis · December 21, 2011, 10:23:49 PM

Two neat things about crock pots

1.) A fella can plug them in almost anywhere and let them cook.

2.) Referring to #1, the dyes can cook in the garage, out of the range of the senora of the casa's olfactory senses.
Then, checking them once or twice a day, they can simply be turned off when they are the right consistency.

Finally, I store the crock pots in the garage with the dyes inside them ready to go, again out of the olfactory's of anyone who might find the smell offensive.

Hell, if your garage is like mine it might just IMPROVE the aroma ... *S*

Drayton Calhoun · December 21, 2011, 11:01:43 PM

Okay, I cheated! I took a 2.5 ounce jar of instant coffee, added 12 ounces of hot water and, wow, a nice medium brown. Then on a whim, I took a pack of Black Cherry Kool Aid and mixed it into the concoction and came out with a rather odd reddish brown. Tried it on a piece of scrap leather just to see what happens as time goes on.
Instant coffee? Well, why spend all day boiling down regular coffee when you can just mix up some hyper-strong instant? LOL

Drayton Calhoun · December 23, 2011, 08:56:24 PM

Okay, maybe the Kool Aid wasn't such a great idea. I believe the citric acid is extremely astringent, the leather dried out badly. Perhaps I should have used a lot of EVOO before trying to bend the leather. As it is, it cracked badly upon bending.

Steel Horse Bailey · December 24, 2011, 02:07:40 AM

You DID say it was a piece of scrap leather, right?

I hope so!

Drayton Calhoun · December 24, 2011, 07:00:17 PM

Oh, yes indeed! Learned my lesson a looooong time ago about trying new things on an ongoing project. Going to play around with this concoction some, see if I can get it to work.

Drayton Calhoun · January 04, 2012, 12:23:30 AM

Here's my first rig using homemade walnut dye, the billets on the belt were dyed with coffee dye...

Ten Wolves Fiveshooter · January 04, 2012, 08:44:47 AM

Very nice, your rig looks good, once you have used natural dyes, you will find just how easy it is to vary your colors and tones, well done pard, and thanks for sharing.

tEN wOLVES

Drayton Calhoun · January 04, 2012, 09:21:13 AM

Thanks TW, I forgot to mention the belt is made from horsehide. Had a couple of 'horse butts' that I got for very little. The thickness varies quite a bit, but it works pretty well.

Massive · February 14, 2012, 02:38:04 AM

I've been reading up on this process, and came across some suggestions that it might be preferable to use actual iron for the mix. I'm not sure whether the idea is that the results on leather are better with iron, or whether the mix is easier to prepare. Anyone know? Either way, I wondered whether anyone had tried iron fillings, it's easy enough to get, though one does need to take care that it is actually pure iron and not merely a powdered steel. Has anyone used Iron fillings for the base? Does anyone know how much to mix. Even a formula for some other form of iron would be a start.

ChuckBurrows · February 14, 2012, 02:59:52 AM

I've been using vinegar black now for over 40 years and have used real wrought iron, mild steel, steel wool, hi carbon scrap from my knifemakining, etc. to make it with and frankly I've never found a spits worth of difference in the final product when used on leather (when made with rusty iron and used on maple you do get better red tones - but it makes no real difference on leather so why mess with rusty stuff when you don't have to). In my experience far more problems are caused by low tannin content in the leather or other problems with the leather itself.

Yep I have heard all the talk that you must use only pure iron, or rusty iron, or that alloyed steel will cause problems, etc. and I have never encountered any of the problems - most of the time such comments are made by those who have either never used it or make assumptions without any real experience with it.

Most of the time these days I just use steel wool since I always have it on hand either new or used and it makes good black even if I don't degrease it.

This is one of the easiest stains to make and use for leather and yet it seems that folks when introduced to it almost always seem to want to improve it

and no I'm not pointing a finger at anyone person here or elsewhere this subject has been discussed.

Anyway FWIW that's my dos centavos.....

as for how much to use....
Vinegar lack aka vinegaroon
The original recipe:
VINEGAR BLACK
For giving color to the grain of leather there is no blacking that will at all compare with the well known vinegar black. This may be made in various ways. The simplest, and, without doubt, the best, is to procure shavings from an iron turner (note: some folks get the turnings from brake drums) and cover them with pure cider vinegar; heat up and set aside for a week or two, then heat again and set in a cool place for two weeks; pour off the vinegar, allow it to stand for a few days, and draw off and cork up in bottles. This will keep for a long time, and, while producing a deep black on leather, will not stain the hands.

How I do it most times:
Use iron/mild steel shavings/scraps or de-oiled 4/0 steel wool: to de-oil dip in acetone, squeeze out the extra and hang to dry - then tear or cut into small pieces. Add one pads worth of the de-oiled steel wool to one quart of white or cider vinegar to start with - I use those plastic coffee "cans" and punch a single small hole in the lid to let of any gas buildup. Let it set in the hot sun whenever possibe which will speed the reaction. I let it set for at least two weeks or until there is only a hint of a vinegar odor left and/or the bulk of the steel wool has been dissolved. Whenever all of the iron/steel is dissolved and there is still a strong odor of vinegar (the odor comes from the acetic acid) I either add more iron/steel or leave off the lid - acetic acid is highly volatile and tends to gas off quite quickly. After it's all cooked up I decant the liquid - any fines I use to "mother" the next batch. I also keep a new batch "cooking" all the time so I have a constant supply.
For the deepest black, apply a bath of strong black tea first (this increase the tannins) and let it soak in good, then apply a generous amount of the vinegar black. Let set for about a half hour and then rinse with a mix of baking soda and warm water, about a 1/8 cup soda to a half gallon of water, apply let set for a few minutes and then rinse off. While still damp apply a light coat or two of your favorite saddle oil. Once dry top coat as normal
Experiment - I test a piece of each new side without oiling to see how well it takes the blacking, if need be I'll do a second black tea mix to darken, then apply the oil which also helps darken.
Instead of steel wool you can use chopped up bailing or fence wire - the smaller the better since it will dissolve in the vinegar bath faster.

Mogorilla · February 14, 2012, 07:27:18 AM

I am a chemist and any of those should work. I have made it with steel wool, but the best and easiest batch I ever made was when I got some Iron Acetate, added it to some vinegar and I was done. All you are doing with the long soak in vinegar is making iron acetate from the iron in whatever you drop in. Steels may take a smidge longer than straight iron, but it will all work.

WaddWatsonEllis · February 14, 2012, 09:52:01 AM

Hi,

I bought a gallon of Vinegar (Rite Aid had it in 1 gallon plastic jugs) .... and I added about 4-5 ounces of iron shavings (given to me by a fellow member, but I would think any plumber that does black iron pipe threading would LOVE to get rid of their shavings [but, being liberally laced with oil, I believe an acetone wash would be necessary]).

I did not heat up the vinagaroon ... 'twould be an easy task as they are stored in the ceramic crock pots that I have bought. But it takes about a month to get the vinegar smell out ... (perhaps i should have cooked them after all).

I did some 3-4 ounce leather while showing off leather working as a '49er leather worker during Gold Rush Days in Old Sacramento .... and it turned the leather in a minute or so .... almost seemed like magic (and made me look very good ... ).

Recently I have made a belt and sheath cover for a Confederate persona that I have (that of my great grandfather), and it has worked extremely well. I used Skidmore's to soften the leather up afterwards (applied to the outside only; gonna line the belt with suede). The sheath for the Confederate D Handled Bowie was horsehide originally and I was told it dyed poorly. So I removed the sheath cover from its wooden sheath, used the horsehide as a template and relined it with vinagaroon-dyed 8-10 oz leather. I put it on wet and let it shrink against the wooden sheath ...

I am currently waiting on David Carrico to get well enough to make me a holster Then I will redye the already black holster with Vinagaroon and while wet hope to vacuum press the leather around the pistol ... my goal is to make the entire rig looked 'lived in' ... and I will add pictures when I am done ...

bedbugbilly · February 14, 2012, 04:38:59 PM

I just add a pound of "common nails" to a gallon jug and let 'er sit - jostle it a little every once in a while to stir it up and the nails seem to work fine.

NOW I HAVE A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS! Hopefully you can help me out.

My vinegaroon works great and gives me a nice black finish. I've been following what was suggested - neutralizing with bakin soda solution, etc.

Questions -

1. I cut my item out - do whateve tooling, etc. and then I've been wiping the vinegaroon on with a swab - going in different directions with each coat until I get the deep black I want. Then I neutralize with the baking soda solution. I haven't been using any oil on the leather though when it is still damp and as a result, it seems to really dry the leather out. I've been dying holsters while they are still in the "flat" and then sew them up afterwards. After assembly, I usually use virgin olive oil on it after I've wet molded it to the pistol. I think I've already answered some of my question by needing to use some oil on it while it is still damp from the dyeing process. It may be a stupid question but are you dyeing while your leather is in the flat or after the holster is assembled? Are you soaking in the solution or are you applying it with a swab - is one way better than the other?

2. As I've said, I'm happy with the results and the depth of black I'm getting but even after a period of time, I'm getting the "vinegar smell". I've neutralized and then rinsed well in clean water and have left outside to "air" even. I have a holster I made a year ago and I can still pick up the vinegar odor. The leather on it seems to be fine - I used olive oil on it, etc. Is there a trick to getting rid of the "vinegar smell"? Am I not soaking it in the baking soda solution long enough?

I'm a figurin' that after having used it for 40 years (the vinegaroon), that you probably have it down to a science and know all the tricks of the trade! Thanks much for any help / advice you can give - it's greatly appreciated!