44 colt conversions vs. 45 colt

[65bsaA65]

I've also seen the  .44 colt conversion cylinders on the Buffalo website.  I bought my first Remington revolver about 3 months ago, from a local gun shop at a really good price.  I've had two 51 navy's for a long time and had been wanting a Rem for a long while.  The 51's are straight cap and ball, no conversions, but with the ease of cyl. changing in the Rem., I've decided that I need a cartridge cylinder.  I don't shoot cowboy competitions, I just like black powder, both in rifles and handguns.  I know there are lots of folks in SCORRS who shoot both .44 Coltand .45 Colt
conversions, and I need some feedback.  Locally, 45 colt ammo is fairly easy to find; I don't know anyone currently carrying .44's.  So, ammo availability is a drawback.  I do not currently reload but will be buying one of the old Lee loading kits whichever way I go.  Are dies available for the .44?Also, because of the difference in bore diameter, I know hollow base or heeled bullets are neccessary---are molds available for these?  Lastly, with the difference in bore diameter, with the
hollowbase bullets, is accuracy decent?  As you can tell, I'm really interested in the .44, if for nothing else than it's probably more nearly historically correct.   I am a newbie on this website; but have gained more usable information in the last month here than in the previous year of playing with this blasted computer.  Thanks, pardners.

[Be-A-triss Bandit]

BSA,
I can only answer one of your questions.  I reload 44 Colt with Lee 44 Special dies.  They do double duty 44 Colt and 44 Special.  The only die setting differences are flare die depth and bullet seating depth.
I haven't used healed bullets. Bullets and molds exist.  Someone else will have to point you to them.
44 Colt is soft shooting and loads down easy.  Haven't seen 44 Colt specific data for Black or subs.
Hodgdon has smokeless data online. http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/spc44colt.php
IMR has Trail Boss data online.  http://www.imrpowder.com/data/handgun/trailboss-feb2005.php
Load safe so you can enjoy your BSA another day.
BB

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Colt 44's are too smal a dia. for your 58 Rem. which has a .451 Groove and .439-.440 lands.
That 44 Colt will just dance down the tube. 44Colt needs grooves of .439-.440

I reload 44 Rem. CF which takes the 44 Colt Brass and bullets from Old West Moulds Fruita Co..

These are outside lubed, heeled bullets and Bernie has all the stuff you need to reload them, plus he'll sell you ammo to already loaded if you want to go that route. I load 4.75 Grns Trail Boss for my indoor shooting and 28 Grn.s FFG or FFFG BP. Very accurate with these loads.

Bernies Email is allisonmonument@aol.com  I don't have his card with me just this moment.

Hope this helps

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The original .44 cf was designed by the Army to convert Colt & Rem C&B's  It had the heeled bullet.  Unless you line down the barrel, you will have to do the same.  Gads shooting supply?  NEI has moulds, as do some others.  lots of discussion on these boards.

PS;  .44 Colt and .44 Rem are Tweedledee & Tweedledum.  They both are the commercial versions of the Army round, with a proprietary stamp.  I suppose, if you shoot a Colt, call it .44 Colt, and if you favour the Remmie, then it is properly called a .44 Remington!

[Marshal Will Wingam]

The original .44 cf was designed by the Army to convert Colt & Rem C&B's  It had the heeled bullet.  Unless you line down the barrel, you will have to do the same.

I had to have my barrels lined for .357 so I didn't have to shoot heeled bullets. They shoot beautifully, but without being sleeved, it may have been a different story. The .45 LC conversions work without all the sleeving and such. Sounds like another reason for the .45.

[65bsaA65]

Thanks, gents, I appreciate the information.  I reckon I'll go ahead and buy a .45 cyl.  That will give me an excuse to buy another revolver, get one of the .44 conversions, and come up with the extra bread to have the barrel sleeved.  If I have both calibers, I won't have to be dithering around having to decide which one I want.  It's great to be able to get input from people who know from experience what they are talking about.  Again, thanks, pards.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Now yer hooked, I can tell you the real truth. You'll need a pair of both.    And a rifle to match each. 

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

However if you shoot the 44 Rem CF you can buy both the 45LC and the 44 Rem. from Kirst and shoot TWO calibers in the same gun without relining the BBL.......ZOWIE!!!

Can you tell i'm a fan of the 44 Rem. CF!!!!! LOl

Got's two Coyotes to my credit with the 44 Rem. CF's .
Just missed two more last Friday trying to get to my Border Collie! But I made them hunt cover fer sure.

[Oldelm]

Charlie,
How're you doin?
Boy, those coyotes better move on outa your county if they knows whats good for 'em.

I'm also a fan of the .44Rem cartridge,...at least I want to be. I sent Walt  back a .44Rem Kirst cyl. which the machine shop had bored "out of index", and Walt very graciously replaced it recently with a good one. When I popped it into my Euroarms '58 Rem it cycled "smooth as bourbon" (as Smokin Gun would say).
But I had 3 split cases out of the first 12 I fired from it.....

http://i13.tinypic.com/42x5sav.jpg   

I figured it was either the Starline brass wasn't annealed enough, or the chambers in the .44Rem Cyl were oversized.  I asked Bernie of Old West Moulds what his chambers' size were at breech end, he said .461 to .463. Well mine are .462, so the chambers are ok,...now I'll try annealing a small batch of the brass and hope that it makes the split case problem go away. The Starline .44Colt brass has outside dia. of .450-.452
Just for reference, Charlie, what do the chambers measure in your .44Rem cylinders? Have you ever had any split cases?

Here's a couple rounds of the outside lubricated 248gr, .44Rem heeled bullet in the .44Colt cases.

http://i13.tinypic.com/2zyabsy.jpg

It's an authentic round of the Old West. Fun to shoot,.....( but I gotta solve my split case problem) 

[Be-A-triss Bandit]

Oldelm,
How do you get such nice crimps?  I would think the die would mess up the bullets.
Wondering.
BB

[Oldelm]

Bandit...........yes, that's a good question, and Bernie Rowles at Old West Moulds has figured it out nicely by modifying the Lee Factory crimp die so's it'll take the .44Rem loaded cartridge and put a crimp right at the case mouth ,...snugging it up onto the heel of the bullet.

Here's the die showing the two parts,...perhaps you're familiar with the Factory Crimp Die. The inner crimper part slides up into the outer sleeve....

http://i13.tinypic.com/483zh4g.jpg


Bernie's modification leaves a little ridge protruding out from the inner wall of the inner crimper piece. Here's a few close-up pic to show that.........

http://i14.tinypic.com/4hi5cv7.jpg

http://i14.tinypic.com/4dd24jd.jpg

When the loaded cartridge enters the die , (I use a Lee single stage press for this).....at the end of the travel of the handle, the case mouth lines up with that inner ridge, and further pressure on the handle forces the ridge to crimp in on the case mouth , crimping it into the lower groove just at the top of the heel.
Here's a closeup of of that (with inner portion of die removed from the outer sleeve just to show it)

http://i14.tinypic.com/2hp7s5d.jpg 

Here's a pic of the bullet itself.....

http://i13.tinypic.com/3zve3qv.jpg   

I hope this helps explain things more,  but it's hard to completely understand the die without seeing it up close & in person. But it DOES work great!

Bernie Rowles makes the heeled bullet moulds, and sells the Lee modified crimp die. He  can be reached at this e-mail address for any questions and ordering info...

ALLISONMONUMENT@aol.com

[Be-A-triss Bandit]

Oldelm,
Thank you, that's a detailed and well illustrated explanation.  The photos clearly show the recess mod to the dies, making them have a crimp "ring". I use Lee Factory Crimp dies - always perfect.  It occurred to me the die would size the bullet down.  Bernie Rowles did what I was trying to figure out; how to put a crimp band inside the crimp die so as to not touch the bullet.  He should patent it if he can.  And it's so simple.  That's the beauty of good engineering.
Thank you for taking the time.  I'm sure many people will benefit.  I'm going to go ahead with a 38 Colt conversion thanks to your great report.
BB

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Thanks for all the information, Oldem. That was great. 

[Oldelm]

Bandit,......thanks for your kind words, and I'm glad my explanation made some sense to you,...probably it helps that  you're  familiar with the Lee Factory Crimp dies.

The modified Lee die doesn't size the bullet down , because it doesn't touch the bullet, it just crimps the case. Actually, Bernie came up with a good way to size the bullet ( and lubricate the bullet at the same time) ..... is to push the loaded cartridge nose first into a lubricator/sizer die in a Lyman or RCBS style bullet sizer.  I do it in my SAECO lubsizer without  using any top punch. Bernie can supply an ejector punch for the sizer die to fit the nose of the bullet, and then lubrication can be applied into the lube grooves in the same operation.

Since you're going to get into a .38 Colt conversion,...Bernie supplies moulds, etc. for the .38 short, long and Kirst cartridges if you're interested. Good luck with that,....you're bound to have some fun.

Oh yes,...good ole pard Marshal Will Wingam shoots alot of .38 Colt in his Remmies,  and has a pair with sleeved .357 barrels.  Hope I remembered that correctly, Marshal   

[Be-A-triss Bandit]

Thank you again.  I'll have to try the lube method too.  Seems much better than gooey fingers or trying to seat and crimp gooey dies.  When I finish my pistol, I'll be ordering his products.
BB

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Wow!! on the split cases. Were they new or once fired?

I haven't had any trouble with Starline brass or Black Hills marked brass, but I bought mine several years ago. 2000 pieces of 44 Colt Brass.  I do not aneal them though, used right from the box. The once fired ones are, I guess, fire formed though...LOL
I have shot a few of mine several times.

My chambers are .460-.462 as near as Ii can measure.

Nary a problem so far.

[Oldelm]

Charlie,...the split cases were from new Starline batch of 100 that I got from Graf & sons. I just ordered another batch from Track of the Wolf. I hope they're good ones.

Just annealed 18 and loaded them up to test,...it should solve the problem (i hope  ) .

You're chambers are consistent with Bernie's and mine,...so I know my chambers aren't oversized.
Poorly annealed batch must be the problem.

Well, it sure is nice to have finally gotten my hands on a .44Rem Kirst cyl. 
Now I gotta open up the frame of the Euroarms '58 at the loading gate.

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Oldelm,
You may want to tighten up the rotational slop of the cylinder recoil sheild in the frame.
I found mine were way to sloppy in the Euroarms frames. Enough so that the firing pin would sometimes rotate almost completely out of the hammer notch in the frame. Had a couple misfires because of it.
I built up the frame with a bit of silver solder then hand fit the cylinder and recoil shield. Then I put Super Blue on the silver solder to darken it up. Both my Kirsts work really well in all my Euroarms frames now and also in the Uberti Revolving Carbine.

[Oldelm]

Charlie,........you're right about the rotational slop. Recoil shield moves to the right when cylinder rotates leaving the firing pin indenting the primers off to one side. Also, after firing, I have to  help rotate the cylinder with slight hand pressure from my other hand when cocking the gun. Cylinder rotates ok when the gun hasn't  just fired,...it only hangs up after a shot is fired. So I wondered if the loose recoil shield had anything to do with it hanging up like that.,....maybe a little misaligned upon firing?
Anyway, yes, your method of silver soldering the frame sounds good. I have around .016 clearance between the frame and foot of recoil shield.

BTW,...,  you mentioned using 4.75 gr Trailboss for the .44Rem (your indoor load).
On the IMR website.....

http://www.imrpowder.com/data/handgun/trailboss.php#44colt

.....they list 3.4gr Trailboss as a maximum load for 44 Colt with a comparable weight bullet as the heeled 248gr..  How did you come to the 4.75gr as your load?  

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Bernie told me the 3.4 was too weak for our 44 Remington C.F's and I started at 4.0 and worked up to 4.75.

4.0 didn't seem like it was enough, 4.5 shot better, and 4.75 shot best out of my pistols.

I load 5.0 for PP/Home Defense loads......almost equal to 45LC in every respect except brass dia.!!