King's Improvement Winnie 73??

J.J. Ferrett · October 13, 2006, 06:14:02 PM

Anyone have any idea of what a 'Kings Improvement' Winchester 1873 is?

Barrel address reads
Winchester's - Repeating - Arms New Haven. CT
King's - Improvement - Patented March 29. 1866 October 16. 1860

The carbine (well barrel length looks like carbine) also has Victorian British Proof Markings, as does reciever. Manufacture date 1893
SRC 44 WCF, all parts intact, maybe a replaced screw or two

Delmonico · October 13, 2006, 06:18:34 PM

The King's Improvement is the loading gate. If they were sold in Britian they had to be proofed in the Govt. Proof house.

J.J. Ferrett · October 13, 2006, 11:19:56 PM

Kewlio.... seems the Brit got himself a British Winchester

St. George · October 13, 2006, 11:31:22 PM

No - he got an American Winchester - sold through a British retailer.

Colt, Smith & Wesson, Remington, Winchester and others all enjoyed a brisk trade overseas and were well thought of weapons at a time when the British were everywhere.

Anything coming in for sale was proofed before going onto the racks and shelves - with each revolver cylinder being separately proofed, as well as the barrel.

Many were additionally engraved with the retailer's name in a fine script.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

J.J. Ferrett · October 14, 2006, 02:13:56 AM

By "British Winchester" I didnt not mean to say that this is one that was made in the UK... just that it was sold there.
Still, I think its fantastic that I have one of the best American lever rifles, with British Proof marks.
I love the history of these weapons, and this just adds buckets.

Dick Dastardly · October 14, 2006, 08:02:04 AM

This is slightly off topic, and I'm not trying to hyjack the thread, but I'm thinkn' history does make our sport more enjoyable.

One thing I do every time I sell a Big Lube™ mold is to include the history of development in the original developers words. I'm thinkn' that there is added enjoyment in owning and shooting guns and bullets that we understand the history of. Maybe that's one more reason we shoot Cowboy Action?

DD-DLoS

J.J. Ferrett · October 14, 2006, 09:32:25 PM

DD,
You hit the nail straight on the head... The reason that I fell over myself to buy this particular Winnie, when I was just looking for an antique '73, was the British proof marks!

To me, this adds that little extra piece of history that makes it MINE!!
The rifle went from the US, over the sea (in a BOAT... grin), to the UK, where it got proofed and stamped, then put up for sale. I dont know if the Brits used these as marshall weapons, but, I am doing some research. Then someday it came back over the sea to its country of origin again.... where it has just been purchased by an ex-pat Brit!!

I love the irony here..

JJ

St. George · October 14, 2006, 10:49:01 PM

I doubt it was used martially, simply because of its ammunition availability - but it could easily have been purchased by an Officer or by one of those gentlemen who went to the far corners of the Empire for use as a personal weapon as he searched for adventure.

Unfortunately - tracking information beyond the retailer who'd originally sold it will prove to be an adventure in itself.

Winchester 'should' have the shipping address and name of the dealer.

If you can track anything beyond that - you're doing a helluva job - and I wish you well.

I just found a Smith & Wesson Baby Russian First Model .38 top break that's British-proofed and has - 'F.T. Baker, 88 Fleet Street, London' - engraved in script on the backstrap.

Beyond knowing the dates of Baker's occupation of that site, and the fact that they also sold to the 'Army-Navy Cooperative' - my trail ends.

But hope springs eternal...

Good Luck.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

Driftwood Johnson · October 16, 2006, 03:09:01 PM

Howdy

By the time the 1866 'Improved Henry' was designed, B. Tyler Henry and the newly named Winchester company had parted company on less than friendly terms. King (wish I could remember his first name) was the guy Winchester hired to replace Henry as shop superintendent. The loading gate King patented for the '66 was always referred to as the King's Patent. Oliver Winchester believed in allowing the patents to be issued in his employees' names; the patent for the Henry rifle had been issued in Henry's name.

J.J. Ferrett · October 17, 2006, 10:19:54 AM

Quote from: Driftwood Johnson on October 16, 2006, 03:09:01 PM
Howdy

Oliver Winchester believed in allowing the patents to be issued in his employees' names; the patent for the Henry rifle had been issued in Henry's name.

ROFL.... yeah... Every respect to Oliver Winchester on that one, would this happen today? Well.. maybe.....

+ Patent holders would have to defend their own patents for infringements (good for the company, not for the patent holder)

- Today I think that the holders of said patents would be too motivated by money and have the opportunity to take the patent elsewhere.

---------------

Driftwood Johnson · October 17, 2006, 04:05:37 PM

QuoteROFL.... yeah... Every respect to Oliver Winchester on that one, would this happen today? Well.. maybe.....

+ Patent holders would have to defend their own patents for infringements (good for the company, not for the patent holder)

- Today I think that the holders of said patents would be too motivated by money and have the opportunity to take the patent elsewhere.

Not really. Shrewd businessmen thought pretty much the same way back then as they do today. Oliver Winchester was nothing if not shrewd. He came to the arms manufacturing business after already having made a fortune for himself as a shirt manufacturer. Although the patent was issued with Henry's name on it, the company held the manufacturing rights. Henry and Winchester parted company in a dispute over pay. Henry thought he deserved more, Winchester didn't. Then Henry attempted to take over the company while Winchester was on an extended vacation in Europe. It was a close thing, but the company almost became the Henry Company, and not the Winchester Company. According to some contemporary sources, it may have actually been the Henry Company for a short while.

John M Browning fared much better with Wnchester. He simply sold all his patents outright for almost 20 years to Winchester. They bought the rights to everything he dreamed up, whether they intended to produce it or not, just to keep his ideas out of the hands of their competitors. The difference was that Henry was an employee, Browning was not.

Smith & Wesson were another shrewd pair of businessmen. When they attempted to patent the idea of the bored through cylinder for cartridge revolvers, they discovered a former Colt employee named Rollin White had beat them to it and already held the patent. When they attempted to buy the patent rights from him, White preferred to keep the rights himself and license the patent to S&W for a royalty of $.50 per revolver. But S&W had the last laugh. They included in the contract that White had to police the patent and chase down patent infringers. He eventually went broke and died penniless after spending all his money on lawyers chasing down patent infrigements.