Poll: Revisit the Henry Big Boy. Should it be SASS legal?

[Micheal Fortune]

And Can't Dance there should be room in this sport for you to do just that.
 
If you can't find it, come shoot with me, and if you whip me with that Henery, maybe next time you will let me borrow it? 

[Wagon Willie]

I think that perhaps we could meld both the Winchester lever action and features found on Colts and have them made here in America by someone like Panther.  Whille it doen't look exactly like any exact firearm it is a lever action, although the lever only moves 1/8".



Sorry, folks, but we gotta draw the line somewhere.  I vote "no" on the BB.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Good thinkin', Willie.

[Deadeye]

NO!!!

1)    Its ugly
2)    It isn't a repo of anything, and certainly not pre 1900.
3)    The company has a bad attitude
4)    The Golden Boy I own is junk, has the worst trigger of any gun I've owned
5)    Did I mention that its ugly
6)    Poor design, particularly the loading arrangement, which is dangerous/stupid in centerfire
7)    And last but not least, its ugly and I don't want to have to look at them at matches


Thanks for asking

Deadeye

[Harve Curry]

NO!!!

1)    Its ugly What's that got to do with anything? You can say alot of arms are ugly, to some people all guns are ugly.

2)    It isn't a repo of anything, and certainly not pre 1900.Since SASS allows so much exptions to their own rules since the 1980's. It used to be that any arm with coil springs action was in the modern category, Rugers were all modern and they made an exception with the Vaquero.The new Henry BB has a place in the modern category.

3)    The company has a bad attitude. You can communicate directly with the owner, Read back on this topic.

4)    The Golden Boy I own is junk, has the worst trigger of any gun I've owned,
Then send it back, fix-it yourself , sell it, give it away, or sell it.

5)    Did I mention that its ugly [/color]Dah, you said that.

6)    Poor design, particularly the loading arrangement, which is dangerous/stupid in centerfire, Basically the same as a Henry, so there is No difference.

7)    And last but not least, its ugly and I don't want to have to look at them at matches. Don't go then. Go to NCOW's shoots. SASS never was historically accurate.


Thanks for asking

Deadeye

your welcome, Harve Curry

[Micheal Fortune]

I personally think all of the above can be said for the Ruger Blackhawk, but I don't have problems with you bringing one to a match........

[Harve Curry]

And the full-auto version of the 1873 Winchester should be allowed as well, but only in the original 44 wcf chambering.

[SmokeyJimWall]

Yep,  make it legal.  Heck, the Vaqueros came around long after the Ubertis and Great Westerns had been on the market.  I had both of those back in the 70's which, I believe is before CAS/SASS.  So, if Vaqueros are allowed, along with other non-replica replicas (Cimaron Thunderer comes to mind), then why not the Henry.  My son has one, and it shoots wonderfully.  Smooth action, and good for huntin', too!

Ride Easy,
Smokey Jim

[Marshal Will Wingam]

NO!!!

1)    Its ugly
2)    It isn't a repo of anything, and certainly not pre 1900.
3)    The company has a bad attitude
4)    The Golden Boy I own is junk, has the worst trigger of any gun I've owned
5)    Did I mention that its ugly
6)    Poor design, particularly the loading arrangement, which is dangerous/stupid in centerfire
7)    And last but not least, its ugly and I don't want to have to look at them at matches

Other than that, It's a good-looking gun, huh?

[Doc Shapiro]

For me it's simple.  The rifle doesn't meet the criteria spelled out in the rules.  In order to allow it, the rule has to be changed.  I don't think that the rule needs to be changed.

Doc

[Evil Swede]

I could see this rifle being brought in under the "modern" class.. and I think as more affordable and reliable Colt clones and other period-correct pistols become available, we should take a look at moving the RV and all non-period calibers (like .38 Special and .357 Magnum) into just the modern, senior and junior categories.  Maybe start with Classic Cowboy, Duelist and Gunfighter.. make them more period correct first and see how that goes.

[Harve Curry]

All Rugers are not the same class as a Colt's or S&W or anything but a modernized version with coil springs.

Rifles and handguns with coil spring actions should be in the modern category.

Short stroked lever actions didn't exist and should be in the modern all out fantasy gun category.

These were the rules when SASS 1st started and thats the way it should be.

How can you reason any other fair & "cowboy way" conclusion ?

[Big Hext Finnigan]

Apparently, you don't care about the reasons.. You keep beating the same ol' drum.

You have not addressed the deceptive and manipulative marketing of Henry.  That's a big problem, especially if you want to quote the cowboy way.

[Big Hext Finnigan]

I could see this rifle being brought in under the "modern" class.. and I think as more affordable and reliable Colt clones and other period-correct pistols become available, we should take a look at moving the RV and all non-period calibers (like .38 Special and .357 Magnum) into just the modern, senior and junior categories. Maybe start with Classic Cowboy, Duelist and Gunfighter.. make them more period correct first and see how that goes.

It would make sense to re-align the categories with the current offerings of guns, cartridges and modificatons.  This would be a major undertaking and I sure don't see that happening anytime soon.  I have made an observation and suggestion.. I'll see if I can find the post and bring it back up.

Here it is:

There's a fair amount of discussion, here and elsewhere about the Modern category and what to do with it.  Here's my suggestion, but it's a pretty significant revamp of the category structure of SASS.

First off, I think there is room for everyone's cowboy shooting style.  Still, they seem to divide along two lines, one Modern and one Traditional. 
Modern would hold adjustable sights, modified guns, light loads and minimal dress.  It would be the default/catch-all category for new shooters.
Traditional would be for traditional BP level loads, stock guns and upgraded dress.
I'd say that 97s could be in both, Blackpowder and smokeless can be in both and two handed shooting can be in both, but not off hand thumbing.

My theory is based on a 4 phase spectrum pairing the two dominant issues in CAS, Shooting and Costuming.  If you will:
Quadrant one is your fast competitive shooter who just happens to be shooting cowboy guns.  He would be just as happy shooting another discipline.  This shooter wears the very minimum of clothes needed to qualify for the match.  His ability to transform steel into a rapid-fire machinery is his passion.

Quadrant two is your competitive shooter, but committed to CAS.  He will slick his guns and lighten his loads.  He wears a Gus rather than a Cattleman's crease on his hat.  He loves the game but it's the shooting more than the history. 

Quadrant three is the Tom Selleck wannabee.  He dresses to the best of his ability and shoots the loads like they did back in the old days.  His guns may have a little stoning or a set of springs.  He cares about his match placement, but not at the cost of leaving the history.

Quadrant four are re-enactors who shoot cause it gives them an excuse to wear the clothes.  He likes to shoot but history, authenticity and heritage are his watchwords.  Blackpowder is the only way for this shooter.  He does the little things and enjoys transporting himself back in time.

It is my observation that most folks are in Q2 and Q3.  Most folks in Q2 want to compare themselves with the folks in Q1 and most folks in Q3 would rather not be compared to folks in Q1 and to a degree Q2.  Q4 folks want more dressing up and look at Q2 as a minimum and Q3 as acceptable costuming. 

I'm sure there is a lot I'm missing and I hope everyone reads this with a clear eye.  I am not judging any position nor am I trying to separate folks, I am relating my observation just think these are the fracture lines that are developing.

[Harve Curry]

Well Big Hext Finnigan I see you are behind the Cross Bar Hotel , and I will consistently and persistantly say that the Henry Big Boy has a place in a modern category. Or other arms should be out as well. Any fair & reasonable conclusion should come to that same idea.

Ahh the "Cowboy Way", and also "2 wrongs don't make a right" is an older and wiser sayin.

Advertising and issues of lots of folks staying employed MAKIN GUNS ( and in Brooklyn, NY of all places, we need more of that politically),  is more important to me then someones thin skin about some individuals bad judgement when they wrote up an ad. 

[Big Hext Finnigan]

"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining" is an even better saying..
If you want to call Henry's advertisements bad judgements.. gimme your number and address, I got some bridges and timeshares to sell ya.

[Harve Curry]

 
If it's rainin or peeing in Texas I'm sure you'd be the one to know Big Hex, and we'll know who to ask about Texas weather.

Now that we all know how you really feel

             It's real simple and comes down to one question:

How can so many other modern and altered rifles and handguns be allowed by SASS & the TG's and not allow the Henry BB in the modern category?

[J.D.Cayhill]

That's easy since we are speaking in "real simple" terms here. Other manufactures chose to follow the existing SASS rules or were grandfathered in because a large number of shooters were already using them in SASS. Other manufactures have went through the proper channels and appoval process while Henry did not. When the Omni Potent was not approved USFA did not engage in misleading advertising to dupe new shooters into believing it was a SASS legal firearm. And finally to the average eye even a Ruger Vaquero can pass the ten foot rule, the Henry BB has as much hope of passing as a fence post.

While I too believe in supporting American manufactures as much as possible, a lie is still a lie whether spoken in English, Italian, or Chinese. It is unfortunate that an American company must be the one taught this lesson, but an example must be made in this case.

[Harve Curry]

The SASS rules in the late 1980's did not allow the Ruger except in the modern category, coil spring actions were specifically spelled out- modern category. Shooters didn't have an adundance of Vaqueros until much later in the 1990's and the rule was changed to accomodate the Ruger action, not the other way around.

I saw the Henry ad and I don't like it, it was pretty bold lie the way it was printed up.

What I am saying is and will stick with is, there are so many exceptions now that the point of keeping historically correct arms is gone. Only in a few select categories can you do that.

As far as keeping gun making jobs in the USA and punishing Henry for a chicken$h!! ad by banning the rifle, that is like throwing the baby out the bath water.

I would think that we would much rather have some of our fellow Americans working at a arms factory in Brooklyn, and the company have the chance to grow and produce better guns down the road that suit you.

I will still say and hold to it that it is of 1st importance to support American arms makers, because we all need to stand together for the long haul. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Obviuosly somebody is listening because the poll has gone from 20% for, to 35% for Henry.

[J.D.Cayhill]

SASS changed that rule to allow a more affordable, more reliable, and more available pistol to be used by a wider variety of shooters. The RV still strongly resembles the Colt design and easily passes the ten foot rule (A rule you seem to have ignored).   This in turn helped bring more members into SASS. I seem to remember seeing a survey in the Chronicle that Rugers are still the most used pistol in CAS. So it would seem that the TG's made a good decision.

The Henry BB is not more affordable than some of the choices we currently have. The question of reliability and availability will only be answered with time if the BB survives. Even most shooters that have responded in favor of the BB have indicated they wouldn't be caught dead at a match with one, so it seems it would not be used by a wide variety of shooters. And to say the BB strongly resembles any pre-1899 design would be like putting whipped cream on bull$hi!. So trying to compare Henry to Ruger is flat wrong.

To insinuate that if we do not support Henry on this model they will close up shop is well.......creative at best. Even if (God forbid) this did happen, the Henry workers would only have the ignorance and arrogance of the Henry management to blame.

If Henry would redesign this ugly excuse for a rifle and follow the same approval guidelines that other manufacturers seem to be able to do, I would be more than happy to support them. But until then I do not support anyone that tries to sneak something this wrong in the backdoor no matter where it is made.

I do think you have your heart in the right place with your arguement, but you have thrown your logic out with that bath water you seem to be so fond of. But at least we do agree that Henry's advertising of the BB was deceptive to put it mildly.

By the way Pard, I hate to tell you but 20% or 30% a 2 to 1 majority in a poll is still a 2 to 1 majority.