Bullet casting questions..... ???

[Mad Mucus]

G'day,

Just starting to gather all the gear to begin the "boolit" casting journey. Pricing/ordering bit'n'pieces and hunting up lead.

*WWs  + 2% tin added, is that the ideal mix for rifle 1200-1300fps Big Lubes?
*20:1 lead + tin? Too hard?

Wanna get it right and repeatable, both forms of alloy 

Thanks,

Mucus

[Mad Mucus]

Found an "old" roll of lead sheeting(freebie from my neighbour's shed), ordered 4x 250gram pure tin sticks being mailed tomorrow, and sourced enough WWs to start a smelting. Now to find an iron pot and some patience.

I'm on my way!

Mucus

[Noz]

I run straight WW for my magnum handgun loads. 41 magnum bullets up to 1700fps with no gas checks and no leading.  I use a homemade lube consisting of canning wax, beeswax and STP oil treatment, soft and sticky.  Added some crayons to make it look purty.
My black powder guns are loaded with same bullet and lube except for an additional wad soaked in the lube.
I'm not a metals man but my understaning is that the formulae for WW metal changes with the whim of the WW caster. Doesn't seem to make any difference. The tin added might make the bullets fill better and might not.  I have no trouble running a moderately hot (800•) pot.
Be aware that bullet casting can be as addictive as shooting.

[Cuts Crooked]

Donno which Big Lube you are cast but the PRS boolit ,old was specifically designed fer straight wheelweight metal and the slugs perform great with that stuff alone! (PigeonRoost wanted to use the KISS principle when he created the design) I really see no need to increase the expensis involved any further than absolutely nessessary by buying tin fer main match boolits.

Now iffin yer loading Big Lubers fer long range buff guns, then a precise mixture makes sense. 20-1 lead-tin is a good starting place!

[Silver Creek Slim]

I use straight WW for pistol caliber Big Lube boolits. I am going to try 25:1 Big Lube 500gr for long range.

Slim

[Hell-Er High Water]

I use straight WW for 45, 200 grain Big Lubes in both pistol and rifle in 45 Colt and 44, 200 grain Big Lubes in pistol in 44 Russian & 44 Speical.  No problems at all.  Easy casting and no leading.

Like Cuts said, keep it simple and keep it as inexpensive as possible.

HHW

[Delmonico]

I've never had any trouble casting pistol bullets with WW's except my 115 gr 32, but that is long and skinny.  Try em as is unless you own a tin foundry.

[Dick Dastardly]

When LEE makes molds, they make them to cast to size specification when using Lyman 1:20 alloy.  Others, including myself, have used straight wheel weight metal to complete satisfaction.  Lately, I've been running a softer mix just because I got 400 pounds of dead soft lead for for makin' up some ammo.  So, I've been using a 20lb pot of lead and one ingot of WW metal to help it fill the mold.  Makes soft bullets, but they sure shoot great in my long range rifles.  For SASS distances it don't make much difference.  I have a 200 pound bucket of wheel weights to smelt down and will probably start mixing a 50/50 alloy to make ingots with.  That seems about the right hardness for most of my shooting.  I'll save the dead soft lead for the long range stuff.

How's that, clear as mud??

DD-DLoS

[Mad Mucus]

Thanks pards,
Not shooting CAS at the moment, but intend to sometime down the track.

RIGHT NOW, I'm shooting 50-100 yards bullseye targets purely for satisfaction and grin-factor.
Looking to cast an accurate PRS 45-250 or a J/P 45-200 over warthog fffg loads .

Soooo...... would softer be better? Maybe 35:1 or 40:1?

Mucus

[Cuts Crooked]

Soooo...... would softer be better? Maybe 35:1 or 40:1?

Mucus 

Short answer.......Nope! WW will do as good as any at those ranges.

[Silver Creek Slim]

I agree with Cuts. 

Slim

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Now for the fly in the ointment information. I had numerous discussions with Lee when we were designing the J/P 45-200 bullet, regarding mold diameter. (J stands for Johnson). Lee may say what alloy they design the molds for, but the unfortunate truth is, their molds are not all exactly the same size. Lee has a tolerance spread of .003 for an acceptable mold to make it through their QC department. You will never find their molds to all be exactly the same. I cannot speak for other mold companies.

We specified the finished bullet diameter when dropped from the mold for the J/P 45-200 to be .4545. I don't have one of my molds handy, so I don't recall right now exactly what diameter the mold is. But I can tell you I had to send my first PRS mold back to Lee because it was so far out of spec that I couldn't get any bullets to come out small enough that I could even size them down to an acceptable diameter. QC was sleeping that day.

The bottom line is, you will receive a mold, and you may have to tweak things a little bit to achieve the bullet diameter you desire. Say you want a .454 diameter bullet right out of your molds. Perhaps your bullets will drop out of the mold right at that diameter. If so, you are golden. Just lube them and load them. If they are dropping out a little bit large, you can size them down around .001-.003 or so. Try sizing them down much more and you start swaging away some of the features, like the crimp groove. Plus, the more you try to size them down, the tougher it gets to shove them through the die.

One way you can control the size your bullets drop out of the mold is with varying your alloy. All cast bullets shrink as they cool. The molds are purposely slightly oversize to account for that. But they will shrink a different amount, depending on the alloy. Generally speaking, the more pure lead is in the alloy, the more your bullets will shrink once cool. Add tin to the alloy, and you start restricting the shrinkage. After that it is just a simple empirical experiment to decide what your alloy should be to determine how mow much they will shrink out of any plarticular mold.

What I'm trying to say is, exact alloy proportions do not matter a hoot for good BP accuracy performance, particularly for CAS bullets. Precision long range may be a different story. My own experience is that anything from pure lead, up to about 20/1 Lead/Tin, works fine.

My Mav-Dutchman mold drops my 44-40 bullets much larger than I want. First of all, I am sizing them all the way down to .427 becuase my '73 has an unusually tight bore. I think my Mav-Dutchman drops my bullets out about .434. Much bigger than I want, and too big to size down. By going to pure soft lead, I have gotten my Mav-Dutchman bullets to drop from the mold right about .430, then I can size them down to .427 fairly easily. A lot of folks say it is difficult to cast with pure lead. I have not found this to be true. I cast very hot and my lead fills the mold just fine and makes perfect bullets every time. My point is, the next Mav-Dutchman mold off of the production line may have dropped bullets slightly larger or slightly smaller. But with my rifle, for my needs, I am casting with pure lead in order to achieve the diameter I need. I actually have a Henry on order, and am anxious to slug its barrel, as I may be able to get away with .429 bullets for it.

Case in point 2: I shoot the PRS and the 'original' J/P 45-200 bullets in 45 Colt. Neither of these requires as much shrinkage out of my molds to achieve the diameter I want, so I am adding some tin to my alloy when I cast them. I am sizing my 45 bullets down to .452. By going with an alloy of about 25/1 Lead /Tin I drop bullets that size down very easily to .452. If I went with pure lead, they would shrink too much.

Yes, it is a little bit of a pain to be casting with two separate alloys, but it isn't as complicated as it sounds. I just cast in separate runs. I add my tin when casting for 45, I don't when casting for 44. If a little bit of one alloy or the other is left in the pot, it isn't a big deal, the alloys don't have to be perfect. 25/1 or 27/1 will give about the same results.

What I'm trying to say is, you won't know what diameter your bullets are until yoyu actually cast some. You are in an ideal situation, you have pure lead and pure tin on the way. The process is simple. Melt up some pure lead and cast some. Twenty or thirty bullets is fine to start with. Then wait until they have completely cooled before measuring them. If you are going to be sizing them down, have your sizer already set up. What diameter do you want your bullets to be? Most guys seem to be using .454 in 45 Colt. I use .452. It's up to you. Measure your bullets. What diameter are they. Are they no more than .003 or so larger than the desired size? If so, size a few. How do they look? is the crimp groove still strong and well defined, or has it started to dissapear as the bullet was sized down? How much effort did it require to size them? You shouldn't have a sore arm at the end of a sizing session. Now it's up to you. If you started with pure lead, they are as small as they will ever be out of that particular mold. If you need them slightly larger, add a controlled amount of tin to your alloy and try again. Are they a little bit bigger now?

You need a postal scale, or something like that to do this properly. Something that weighs in ounces, forget grains. You don't need that kind of precision for this work. Weigh your lead, cold, to begin with. It's easiest to start with a nice easy number like 5 pounds, so you will know how much tin you are adding. Five pounds is 80 ounces. 20/1 will be 4 ounces of tin to 80 ounces of lead. You can do the math. Just keep adding a known amount of tin to your alloy until you achieve the bullet diameter you need. If you need to work the numbers for the size of the pieces of tin you have, do it that way. I buy 1 pound bars of tin from McMaster Carr, then saw them up into 2 ounce pieces for my alloy. It ain't rocket science, you don't have to be painstakingly exact, anything from pure lead to 20/1 tin will be fine.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Driftwood,

You speak the truth.  I've handled more LEE molds than most people will see in a lifetime.  LEE
lathe bores the molds.  There tolerances are -0.000 and +0.003.  I've had customers need to return
molds to LEE and I've seen the hard work done by Patrick and Doug at LEE to satisfy
complaints.  I also have to say that the percentage of complaints is very small.

Most casting problems with the Big Lube™ molds I sell are cured by reading the fine direction
sheet included with each mold.  There is good advice in there.  However, some pards find
somebody that has "experience" and trust them more than the written directions.  My advice is to
read and follow the LEE directions.  99.9% of the time the new caster will get good results this
way on their first casting session.  Then, if wanted, procedure may vary.  Take notes and watch
results.  If problems crop up, go back to the original directions and start from there again.

One of the most common problems in casting with the big Six cavity LEE molds is that a new
caster will "hold" the mold "closed" by squeezing on the third (sprue cutter) handle.  This
actually forces the mold blocks open a bit and oversize bullets with ears and whiskers will result.
If that happens, carefully clean up the mold, put the bad bullets back into the pot and start over.
The sprue cutter handle should be fully closed so that the cutter cam has full purchase, but it
should never be squeezed.

Another problem is breakage of the sprue cutter handle.  This usually happens to first time
casters.  I've NEVER broken a sprue cutter handle.  I've cast bullets with each of the designs I sell
and usually have several of each on my shelf that I've worked with to prove out a batch or design.
The trick is this. . . If you pour a cold mold full and haven't completely closed the sprue cutter
handle you won't have full use of the sprue cutter cam.  If this is ever the case simply put a flat
screwdriver blade under the cam so it has a metal step to "walk" up onto.  NEVER hit the sprue
cutter handle.  That kind of force is completely unnecessary and actually destructive.  That's how
most sprue cutter handles get broken when the caster finally owns up to it.

Once a Big Lube™ mold is dropping good bullets for you, you may never have to smoke the
cavity again.  However, do keep the alignment pins lubricated with a little bullet lube.  Alox
works fine and since you probably have some left over from your smokeyless days, this is a good
place to put it to use.  It doesn't take hardly any to do the job.  Also, lube all the joints that move
or mate.  NEVER get lube in the bullet cavity(s) because you will have to clean and re-smoke the
mold before it will quit dropping "wrinkled" bullets.  I like to use a small screwdriver to put a
tiny dab exactly where I  want it when the mold is hot.  It melts and goes right to work.  Don't use
so much that it migrates to the cavities.

Finally, there is a wave washer under the sprue cutter bolt.  Don't wrench on this bolt till you
strip out the threads.  Simply make sure the bolt is snug.  It's correct when it comes from the
factory.  The reason for the wave or spring washer is to allow for a little play.  That way when
you manage to get some metal between the sprue cutter plate and the mold blocks you won't gald
the mold blocks.  If you're running your temperatures right and allowing your pour to set up a bit,
you won't "smear" the sprue cut.  If you do get some metal "smeared" on the mold blocks or the
backside of the sprue cutter plate, let the mold cool a bit and scrape it off with a piece of
hardwood.  I like hard maple for this.  Don't use metal cuz you will scratch the mold and you
could do it enough damage to ruin it.  I've not done that, but I've seen some pretty rough looking
molds from casters using something like a knife to scrape at the "smeared" metal.

Hey, that sure got wordy.

Enjoy the casting.

DD-DLoS





                                 

[Mad Mucus]

DJ & DD

GOOD STUFF !!!

Excellent information    printed and filed.

Mucus

[w44wcf]

DJ & DD,
Great info to share with the pards. Thank you.

MM,
One other thing to consider, is that if one is compressing the powder charge a bit, the harder w.w.alloy (I add 2% tin to my w.w.) bullet can be used to compress the powder without distorting.   

The very best group I ever fired with black powder from my .45 Colt Marlin Cowboy (24") rifle  was done with 250 gr. bullets made from w.w.+ 2% tin alloy.  Discounting the 1st shot which fouled the barrel, the next nine shots grouped into slightly less than 1" @ 50 yards.

Next month I am going to use that load (40 Swiss FFG / 2 1/2 Rem. Primer) at 300 meters on some steel pigs. Should be fuunnn! 

w44wcf