Who rolls yer' own?

[Bow View Haymaker]

Who's making there own paper cartridges for cap &ball revolvers?

I have a pietta/remington .44 and am considering a conversion cylinder.  But I read some on the scorrs site about paper cartridges. 
I would like more info on making them and loading them and shooting them.  Anyone have some pictures?  I know they used paper loads with the originals.  What was different about them?
Didn't the original papers tear open the bottom when seated so you wouldn't have to prick them?  What is a good glue to use?  I load now with a lubed wad between  powder and ball.  Can I make the papers the same way?  Or should I not use the wad and go back to the messy greas on top of the ball.  (adding another step again)
I am trying to find a way to make loading this thing fast and simple. 
Any thoughts on how to keep the caps on?  Right now I have to pinch them and put them on by hand.  No capper works.  #10 caps.
If you use multiple cylinders do you  load several at home or before the shoot then just cap them at the loading table?
Your ideas are appreciated.

thanks

Haymaker
Paul Arens

[Noz]

I can only addrress the capping problems. I had the same problems and solved it by buying a set of #11 Thunder Ridge nipples. #11s because they are what is available here.  11 stages shot and one lost cap. My fault, no problems, got cocky, didn't seat them firmly.
I modified the cylinders as shown in The Dark Arts under Capping. Any capper can be used, snail or in-line.

[Adirondack Jack]

On the caps, ya might try different brands, or ya might end up replacing the nipples with ones that fit better.

On paper cartridges, if yer just looking to make life easier, then really, a plain spout measure is about as fast as it gets.  Guys mostly load on the line.  When I carried a .36 navy afield, I used to make little "POWDER" only cartridges, by rolling a cigarette paperaround a short length of thin walled brass tubing just a hair under cylinder size, then as I recall, I folded over the one end, dropped the charge into the tube, and slipped the paper off the tube with the powder inside.  I cut em off with scissors and twisted the other end shut.  I carried a little tin of these charges, alsong with some wonder wads and balls, and could load by simply grabbing the cartridge by the twisted enbd and shoving it into the chamber so the folded end was going in first (it was simply folded like a coin roll).  folliowed by a wad and a ball, then rammed tight.  The act of ramming would split the paper, and they worked with no missfires and no debris left behind.

[River City John]

The child board "The Dark Arts" has a saved thread about making combustible paper cartridges.

[hellgate]

I used to roll my own but eventually realized that it was too time consuming. I found that a nice flask and a 20 or 30 gr spout was much faster.  To roll 'em I used a dowel and cigarette paper. To keep a gun functioning for the whole match you need lots of lube. A wad in the paper cartridge would leak into the powder.  You can roll the cig paper onto the conical or ball by licking the glued edge and rolling it onto the lead off the end of the dowel. Unburned paper can lead to misfires or worse yet, ignite the next cartridge or powder flask. Keep a pair of tweezers handy to pick out paper frags that could be rammed down against the flash hole and cause misfires. Nipple picks are imperative if you rely on paper cartridges. I "nitrated" the cig papers by dipping them in a saturated solution of potassium nitrate (AKA Stump remover @ $1-2/pound). Just don't get the glued edge wet. Original paper carts. I have seen were of conical bullets and look fairly under powered like 15 -25grs in the 44s and only about 15grs for the 36s. The powder was held in a nitrated paper skin resembling a long truncated cone.

I use under ball wads and grease over the ball for match shooting. I use loose powder and a flask+wads+grease and have no trouble keeping up with posse duties. I tend to "work" the unloading table. I still don't get behind during "True Grit" endurance type matches where you use a shotgun, two rifles and four pistols per stage. I charge 5 (chambers), wad 5, ram 5 balls, & grease 5. Mark the chamber you don't load with a drop of fingernail polish on the side of the cylinder. That eliminates a lot of confusion over which nipple to cap and helps the loading table RO see where the nipple ain't for the hammer to rest.

Buy the right size caps. #10 Remington fit most nipples. #10 CCI are much smaller and #10 RWS are even smaller and don't fit anything I have used. Otherwise buy the Thunder Ridge SS replacement nipples or the Treso nipples. Both like Rem#10s.

Buy a third gun rather than an extra cylinder for reloads. It is an excuse for another gun the wife will accept.

[Bow View Haymaker]

The child board "The Dark Arts" has a saved thread about making combustible paper cartridges.

Thanks,  I found that thread earlier today and read through it.  Lots of good info. 
I think I might try to make a few cartridges but it seems like I just need to practice my loading. 
I am going to try a different brand of caps and see if I can modify the in-line capper that came with my starter kit to make it work.  I think I am pretty good with the flask.  I tried bore butter but it got so thick I couldn't get it out of the tube or spread it.  I used lubed felt wads between the powder and ball last time and that worked well, and the gun cleaned up easily.  BTW I am using pyrodex for now, but plan on trying some of the other powders like triple seven, cleanshot and maybe the true black.  If I can get to the point that I can trust the caps then I might be happy. 
I still want a '75 rem' though.

thanks again,

[Montana Slim]

Mostly load from the flask these days, but have used home-rolled in the past....When I do make paper catridges...I do not pierce the cartridge, or tear in any way. I allow the flame of the cap to pierce the paper. I use untreated vellum for the catridge.

Hope this is of interest,
Slim

[Dick Dastardly]

If this helps. . .

I load my cylinders on my gun cart between stages and cap at the reloading table.  Since I use the DD/ROA Big Lube™ bullets lube/sized to .454, they make a nice tight interference fit and prevent any possability of cross fire from the chamber face.  I cap the cylinders at the loading table.  There is no need for any other lube, cookies or over bullet grease.  This sequence allowes me plenty of time to participate in posse activities and still shoot Frontiersman.

I do dispense my powder directly from a flask and I do charge five chambers before seating the bullets.  However, it's almost as quick as loading cartridges.  And, you all know that when I get back to the ranch, I don't have to reload any of 'em lil brass bottles with primers, powder and bullets.  There are advantages to Frontiersman. . . .

DD-DLoS

[hellgate]

Haymaker,
Regarding powders: I have used everything except the very first sub Gplden Powder which I think evolved into Black Canyon which evolved into APP which was the same as CleanShot and now is improved upon and sold by Goex as Pinnacle. I've also used Pyro RS, Pyro-P, CleaRshot, Black mag 3, & 777 in the rifle cartridges & shotgun. I have yet to get a hold of any Pinnacle but I plan on it. The Black Canyon needed firm crushing (looked like kitty litter) and was weak. CleaNshot looked like ball powder and was not quite as weak and the rest were about the same powder as real BP (but for 777 being more potent than everything else).

I will use anything available for the shotgun using equivalent volumes for BP as my guide. i.e. 80grs of any sub = a volume equal to a volume that would throw 80grs of BP. I do not use 777 in the shotgun as it needs a smaller volume and cannot be charged with the same volumetric measures as the rest of the subs to get the same load. It'll work but at a smaller volume/charge. I shoot either 80grs or 55grs with 1 1/8oz or 7/8oz respectively. I have a knockdown load and a gamer/swinger light (20ga equivalent) load.

In the C&B revolvers I've only used Pyro & BP. With Pyro you need a FIRM seating of the ball or you might get delayed ignition especially if you use a lube wad. I found the wads prevented me from really crushing the Pyro and for an entire match every shot went paBOOM. I learned "follow through". Also Pyro-P is very spongy (compressible. I found that I could just about fill the chambers to the top and ram a ball hard enough to seat it below the chamber mouth and get a nice whollop. In the 36 cals I got about 26-27grs volume into the chambers. You can't do that with BP as it won't pack down like Pyro-P. If you try that with 777 you may blow the thing apart. In fact, I have never used 777 in the C&B revolvers as you may be able to exceed the design tolerances. I know of one Walker Colt that sent the barrel down range with a load of 777. Use it sparingly (especially in Colts) or not at all.

[Noz]

My short experience. Pyrodex RS is hardest to clean up and most likely to cause rust if not cleaned immediately after shooting. Based on this did not try P. Between Pinnacle and Goex, I like Goex better. Actually seems to shoot cleaner in my guns than does Pinnacle. Cheaper too.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The idea of paper cartridges goes back further than percussion days. Paper cartridges were quite common in the flintlock era too. It was quite common for militia wives to get together just like a quilting B and roll cartridges instead of quilting during the Revolution. The difference in the flintlock era was you didn't worry too much about the paper burning up. The cartridge was just a strip of paper rolled up containing a measured powder charge and a ball. In use, you bit open the cartridge, poured a little bit of powder into the pan, closed the frizzen and dumped the rest of the powder down the bore. Crumple up the paper and stuff it down the bore for wadding allong with the ball. This was in smooth bore days, and the ball was not a tight fit in the bore. The main advantage to making up this sort of cartridge is it separates the task of measuring the powder from the tasks of loading and shooting. All cartridge manufacture of any sort does that. Separate the tasks of measuring out the powder, and perhaps the task of priming too, from the tasks of loading and shooting. In flintlock days powder measurement and cartridge assembly was done in a relaxed and safe environment at home. This makes a lot of sense with a muzzle loader when you don't want to be wasting any time under fire measuring out your powder. Just bite the cartridge open and pour out the powder. That would help with delivering 3 aimed shots in one minute.

The devolopment of combustable paper cartridges for breech loading rifles like the Sharps was a slightly different idea. Here, you not only did all the cartridge manufacturing away from the battlefield, but you were also employing the rapid reloading capabilites of a breech loader. This meant you did not have to force a tight fitting patched ball down the bore like you had to with a contemporary muzzle loading rifle. It also meant you could crouch and hide behind something to load and did not have to stand up exposing yourself to fire in order to employ gravity to get the powder down the barrel. With a breech loader, you can load from any posture, and don't have to force anything down the bore. It was a short and obvious step from there to metallic cartridges, only needing ignition systems perfected for fully encapsulated metallic ammunition.

But one of the beauties of a percussion revolver in this game is that you don't need to spend any time at all at home preloading your cartridges. Some of my friends shoot either cartridges or C&B. I know one guy who chooses to shoot C&B if he doesn't have any cartridge ammo made up. Sometimes I envy him, because if I want to shoot that week, I have to be sure I have enough ammo on hand. In the CAS world we don't have to worry about loading in exposed postions, and don't need to worry about shaving time off our reloading by having our powder pre measured. It really only takes a second to put your finger over the end of a powder nozzle, open the valve, tilt it to fill up the nozzle, then close the valve and dump the powder into the chamber. Then you ram in the ball. Really very simple. Oh yeah, don't forget the lubed felt wad between the powder and the ball. They didn't have those in percussion days, but they are a great way to help avoid chainfires.

[Dick Dastardly]

Yer close Driftwood,

But, imagine precision cast conicals, all lube/sized to a nice snug interference fit. . . .  Then, do whut ya said with the flask and seat one of 'em lube/sized projectiles and ram it down.  Presto, yer done.

That's whut I've been doin' at my gun cart.  I take my empty cylinders from the unloading table to my cart.  I re-charge 'em and cap at the reloading table.

Presto-frisco, I'm done near as fast as 'em heathen cartridge wannabees.

I have plenty of time to do posse chores, visit with pards and get my shootin' done.

The DD/ROA boolit and bullet vials make it all hapen.  It's easy, fast and it flat works.

DD-DLoS