.45 Special

[Mad Mucus]

G'day all,

I may be a tad behind, but have just found out about .45Spl cartridge.
How well does it run with the black in .45Colt revolvers and Marlin leverguns(with carrier mod) ?

Mucus

[Dick Dastardly]

Well MM,

I just ran some tonight.  They run great with the EPP-UG-45-147 bullets.  I got a great group and a very small standard deviation.  The graph gave me a SD of just over 2 fps with the wild card thrown out.  Average velocity was 841 fps and that ain't mouse phart country.  Recoil was mild and managable, even for the recoil sensative shooters.  My 38s kick more.  Pardon me if I sound like a cheerleader, but this is a combination of brass and bullet that will change our game.

I don't have a 45 Cal rifle so I can't comment.  If they can be fed thru lever rifles, they will not foul out.  The EPP-UG-45-200 is a true Big Lube™ bullet.  It hauls as much lube as a PRS or J/P 45-200.  One thing that seems to be surprising is that it performs as well with heathen smokeyless fad powder as it does with Holy Black.  I'll be shootn' it with bp tho. . . . .

DD-DLoS

[Mad Mucus]

Thanks DD,

Just checked on AJ's site... very interesting. http://www.cowboy45special.com/cowboy45brass.html

Read your 01SEP06 report. Looks like you're happy with the J/P-45-200 performance too, reckon they'd be better in the rifle.

Might ask AJ for the Marlin lifter mod info.

NEVER wanted to start casting before, but am real interested now!  Think I'm kinda hooked on this Darkside thing.
Will have to check out what's needed to get started... Lee/Lyman equipment.

Mucus

[Brian Why]

Thanks for the info DD. One question though. I'm new to reloading so I'm not sure if this is a dumb question or not...

If I wanted to get one of them single stage loaders (like the LEE PRO 1000) to load .45 Special would I get one in 45ACP or 45LC? The cowboy45special.com site says it's the same height as an ACP round but I don't know if that means it'll fit in standard ACP dies or not?

[SFT]

I used nothing but 45 acp dies when loading the 45spl, which required little effort since they load so smoothly.

[Mad Mucus]

Having no semi-auto cartridge reloading experience, woud the .45ACP seating die roll-crimp effectively?

Mucus

[Dick Dastardly]

I used a 45 Colt shell holder and 45 ACP dies in my LEE Pro 1000.  Worked perfect.

DD-DLoS

[Grapeshot]

Congradulations!  You have come up with a short .45 similar to the .45 Webley.

Your .45 Cowboy Special case is .895 inch long and the .45 Webley runs from .802 to .816 inch long.  Depending on Manufacturer.  As an aside, the rims for the Webley cartridge were made with .499 to .504 inch diameters.

This Cartridge was made in the US with an inside lubricated bullet from 1875 to 1939.

Colt had revolvers chambered for it and Remington had their single shot pistol chambered for it as well.

Load was a 230 grain bullet and 20 - 22 grains of BP.

Headstamps for US made ammo read, UMC .45 Webley; WRACo. .45 Webley.  a couple of examples with no headstamp attributed to USCCo and AM MET

Although a dismal failure as a military catridge, the .450 Webley became popular in British and European pocket revolvers

Reference:  US Cartridges and their Handguns, 1795 - 1975 by Charles R. Suydam.

Mad Mucus!  Roll or taper crimps work equally well.

[Adirondack Jack]

I've shot original Colt/Eley (aka Webley Mark I) rounds, and .450 Adams (the ancestor to the Webley) and yes they are both close, and would have remained very popular had the Brits not be dispossessed of their handguns prior to WWII.  AAMOF< if the brit cases would have worked in unaltered .45 Colt guns, I woulda used em.  What was needed was to recreate that performance in a round suitable for use in "off the shelf" .45 colt guns.

Yes, acp dies work fine.  I use the LEE carbide dies (work well and the price is right), and they willl do either a taper crimp, or if ya crank em down a bit more, a modified roll crimp.  The only .45 Colt bit you need is a shell plate.

For a LEE Pro 1000 press, I'd CALL LEE Precesion and tell em ya need a press with a .45 COLT shell plate and acp dies. (since die are included, may as well get the right thing).

[DArchangel]

Often wondered, can a 45 acp cylinder be reworked to shoot the 45 british rounds?

[Adirondack Jack]

I wouldn't think so.  The rims are too thin to headspace on the rim and the case length is also shorter.

[Grapeshot]

With a .45 ACP cylinder, the cases headspace on the mouth of the case.  You CAN remove metal from the rear of the cylinder to allow the british rounds to headspace on their rims or countersink the chambers to accomplish the same thing.

I've seen .45 revolvers that had their cylinders trimmed to allow the use of .45 AutoRim cartridges.  In any instance, its a one way modification.

[Adirondack Jack]

Grapeshot, you are correct on the rim aspect and the headpacing on the case mouth. However, the brit round is shorter than the ACP, which would create an excessive headspace issue and potential ignition difficulties when headspaced on the mouth.

A pard just wrote me saying the acp cylinder in a ruger has sufficient headspace at the case rin for a Colt rim, so the Brit case with it's thinner rim can't be allowed to headspace on the rim either, as it is on the order of .020 thinner rimmed. I have here the LONGEST webley/eley case, which is the BP version not loaded since 1930.  The smokeless versions, shorter yet, definitely won't wrk.

[Mad Mucus]

A. Jack,

What is the correct case length for .45Special?

I'd buy your brass, but as it's not available here and Oz law prohibits citizens importing gun parts or ammo components, I'd have to cut down some Colt cases. 

Thanks

Mucus 

[Adirondack Jack]

The nominal length is .898, but they measure .8965 as new.  If you cut down Colt cases, here are some tips to make em run fair.

Debur and chamfer inside and outside.

Know that cut down Colt brass will be too thick and will run rough in the press and may show a bulge when bullets are loaded.  You can make this a little better if you can anneal the case mouthes and just bear with em for a few reloads.  They seem to iron out some in time.

Not as good as properly drawn cases, but about as good as you can do in OZ.

Good luck and email me if I can be of any further assistance.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy MM,

I've shipped stuff to Oz and had no problem.  If you have a "dealer" I can ship to, I'll get some of Jack's 45 Special brass and send it along to you.  Shipping is spendy, but possible.  Also, please ask if loaded ammo can be imported.  If so, I can load some up with the new EPP-UG bullets and ship to your dealer.  That way, you have loaded ammo and the right brass when you are done shootn'.

It might take a while to get the new bullets made because I talked with Pat at Lee Precision today and they are quite backlogged with custom mold orders.

I think that greater minds can find a legal work around for your brass question.

DD-DLoS

[Adirondack Jack]

DD's post caused me to look at our postal rules for OZ (based on what OZ tells them they cannot receive).  The only firearms-related listing for prohibited items is silencers.  Not saying this is the final word, but at least the OZ customs folk had not told US postal if they have further restrictions beyond those items we can't mail (explosives, etc).

Sounds like ya could order brass and bullets, but not ammo if MAILED.  Loaded ammo would have to go UPS or Fedex, unless they have some limits on shipping to OZ.

Every country is different.  I checked for a fellow about Sweden the other day.  He cannot buy primed cases or ammo, but can buy bullets and brass.

[Mad Mucus]

DD & AJ,

Just got off the phone to Australia Post Services..... they will not allow anything concerning firearms or weapons of any kind(parts, ammo components, knives etc.) to enter Oz by mail.

Will ask questions at my local gunshop today, but I'm pretty sure everything they get from OS must be brought in through major distributors(licenced importers).

Anyway, content with .45Colt for now.

Mucus