What, 'zactly, is it? OT? Conversion?

[Plano Bill]

I know little about revolvers of any kind, only what I've read in the Forum Hall in the last two weeks about CAS pistols and single actions in general, and absolutely nothing about OTs & conversions. Didn't think I'd like 'em, either.

Then I handled one at a show this weekend and bought it.  Too pretty, too slick not to.  Fella was spinning an interesting story about it: reportedly, some kind of 'prototype' Uberti/Navy Arms' piece.  No proof marks I can find; "Navy Arms" on the bottom of the barrel up front, and "38special" (with no space between '38' and 'special'), also on the left side of the barrel just above the wedge and locking screw.  S/N is 67XX, in two places.  That's it.



Cycles like a fine watch - slicked up nice, and the trigger pull is very light with zero take-up.  The trigger guard and front grip strap look to be nickel but might be stainless - can't tell.  Front sight blade is in the white.

I don't know enough about where to look for examples of the genuine article.  Have emailed Navy Arms for info, but you STORM guys are probably my best bet.  This nice little shooter seems to be some sort of 'mix' of characteristics of various 'real' models, but looks most like the "Richards Transitional" model as seen over on the Cimarron site (which, of course, is in 44).

Info, educated guesses, SWAGs, opinions, all appreciated.  Not even sure if it was made by Uberti.  Whatever it turns out to be, it'll only be the first of many OTs I gotta get...

Does this qualify for STORMhood?

regards,

W.T.

[Fox Creek Kid]

No offense, but the photo is darker than a lawyer's heart. Can barely make out anything. Post a clearer photo, please.

[Plano Bill]

No offense, but the photo is darker than a lawyer's heart. Can barely make out anything. Post a clearer photo, please.

LOL!  None taken!  Sorry - how's this?



Also posted this shot made by laying it on the scanner bed on another forum:

[Fox Creek Kid]

It's an ASM (Armi San Marco, since closed) "bastardized" copy of nothing. It has a 1st Model Richards conversion ring w/o the authentic lip yet it has the integral sight. There were never any .38 cal. Richards ever marketed by Colt. The market was glutted with these around 2000 and most didn't work due to wretched quality control. In the end, Traditions was practically giving them away as there were so many QC problems. IMHO they were a POS. They were not a copy of anything historically correct and QC was abysmal. That's just my opinion based on a couple dozen I've seen as well as heard about from others.

[Plano Bill]

Che mala fortuna!  Thanks; ya live & learn...that's why I'm here.  Any recommendations on reading matter re: OT/Coversions appreciated as well.  Fit, finish, & apparent good functionality are clearly not enough to go by.  Fortunately, a cheap education so far.

Got an old box of Fed 38 wadcutters around, but won't get to shoot it (if it shoots) until tomorrow evening, & will report back on any POS/functionality problems noted.

Cheers

W.T.

[Smokin Gun]

Bill nothin wrong with AMS Revs or conversions...but only if they work same as any other Cimarron...Uberti or ASM.
Take er out and shoote her thaey are a sweet revolver. Have a friend that had one for about 18 years...still works like new.
Or you can sell it and get your money's worth forsomething else. But if it works it's a keeper. If you need parts and Cimarron can't help you, try here:
Armi San Marcos Parts

Deer Creek Products
6989 E Michigan Rd
Waldron, IN 46182
(765) 525-6181

P.O. box 246
6989 E. Michigan Rd.
Waldron, IN 46182

[Major 2]

Traditions was not the only importer, Navy Arms, EMF & Cimarron also had them.
Traditions was more interested in holding the price line...
and their guns, I've seen reflected that, only fair to good fit & finish.
I've seen these for sale and passed.

The three latter importers demanded a higher degree on quality and the price was adjusted accordingly...these were quite different.
With EMF and Cimarron guns quite nice in fit finish & function.
Armi San Marco, was owned & operated by a son in law of Aldo Uberti , they were quite capable of turning out nice work.

I have one ( I suspect is a US finish ASM ) marked USPFA, as they also imported guns in white for completion here.


and yeah.... it's a Storm ! 

[W.T.]

Mama Mia!  Went MIA overnight & most of today until Marshal H & Marshal'ette straightened out my account mess.  Had two aliases going; wanted to get just the one up under my pending SASS alias; shot myself in the foot & whacked everything.  You fellas who sent me those nice PMs probably wondering why I haven't replied - sorry; my fault - got my correct alias back ok, but lost my PMs & association with my old posts.

This Armi San Marco stuff is getting downright karmic & has had me in an Italian mood all day.  Did, indeed, play hooky for a couple hours & got the ASM mongrel "conversion" to the range (I was referring to it as "The Bastard", but in keeping with its latin lineage, changed that to "Il Bastardo").  Now you ain't gonna believe this, but it's first-cousin-with-octagonal-barrel-missing-the-front-sight-blade was sitting in the range shop.   For $525.00.

"Say, lemme look at that, uh, conversion there in the case," I said.  The '38special' mark was identical to that on mine and in the same place.  Where mine said 'Navy Arms', this one one had 'USPFA' (thanks, major231).

"Who made this thing, ya know?," I asked.

"It's, uh, well, imported by USPFA," the man said.

"Well, I  know who made it," I replied, "Armi San Marco, over in Italy.  And it's reputed to be a real parte de escremento."

"What's that mean?", he asked.

"Means quite-a-piece-of-work," I said,"Somethin' special.  That must be why it's $525.00"

Persons not swallowing this report may PM me & I will provide the address and name of the place where una parte de escremento may be seen.

Anyway, I got a lane and set to work to see if there were any POS, uh, parte de escrento (PDE) issues  At 45 feet, more-or-less, touched off two rounds of 148gr full wadcutter, quod vide:




The pull-to-the-left was my idea.  However, PDE soon raised it's ugly head.  My next three rounds got their primers dimpled, but no bang.  Light strikes!  "Aw, escremento!", I thought.

Stopped at another shop & smiths before sneaking back into work.  I think it's gonna be a peened firing pin, weak springs, and maybe a little excess end-play (but not much; .00somethin').  Smith didn't like the light trigger at all - pull is really non-existent - and said I might wanna get a sear/trigger/whatever when I ordered springs and a pin (thanks, Smokin_Gun!).

Anyhow, it seems a polite & sweet shooter.  Have dealt with light-strike issues before with my old bolt rifles, and think that IL Bastardo will provide a fine platform for the study of single action lockwork.  And i have licked the pages of the Cimarron catalogue clean - just can't decide which "real" conversion to get.

Buona fortuna, and mille grazie again to all who replied.


W.T.

ps - BTW, the nice people at Navy Arms replied to my query today, confirmed the ASM manufacture, and mentioned that there had been many, many PDE issues with the ASMs, but many were also nice.  Ya gotta love corporate candor.

[W.T.]

Shoot.  Forgot to mention: Navy Arms also said that the PDE problems were witjh 70s-80s imports.  Il Bastardo looks a lot younger than that...

[Smokin Gun]

You are very welcome W.T. you'll be happy when them parts come in. I just repaired y 1860 that's about 10 yrs old and a hair trigger. Did a littlle cleanin' up on the sear...need to get some Kasinet to reharden but it works good now.
Hey, them Pics you posted what format are they I can't see them.  jus' get the red X in the corner and borderline of pin. I don't know why I can't see them in here. Are they standard .jpeg pics?
Thanks,
SG

[W.T.]

Kasenit!  Was just wondering if I can still find mine, in case I gotta make a firing pin and harden it...

Why, thems plain old Jpegs - I can see 'em fine.  They're posted outta photobucket - sometimes when I can't other folks pix, I right-click on them, select "show picture", and they pop right up, but that doesn't always work...

I attached the smaller of the two shots to this reply - does it show up for you?

W.T.

[W.T.]

I can't see the first group of pics either, WT.  It says "PhotoBucket - this image or video has been moved or deleted".  I can see the 2 pics in the last post, though.  Nice looking gun.

I attempted to change the photobucket 'album' on the Bastardo pix at roughly the same time that I was accidentally murdering my account data, but I can still see the blasted things up above in this thread!  There's some kind of voodoo factor in the 'net.  The pix were anyhow the same ones showin up now as 'attachments', except for the one with IB bedded down on the scanner (below).

I am tempted by the Richards shown on Texas Jack's site, and similarly admire the look of those 51s.  Shot a total of 100 rounds of 45lc out of my Rugers yesterday and right now I am both drinking and soaking my wrists in my morning coffee.  Think that the long-barreled 38 will be the ticket for the extended practice needed in improving SA pistol skills.  The show-stopper for me is gonna be that filed rear sight on top of the trigger - I can't see it, & will need to have something with the notch integral with the ring.

W.T,

[Major 2]

W.T. you mention yours was marked ..."Navy Arms" on the bottom of the barrel up front..
And the USPFA you found is mark in the same place ?

My gun is stamped USPFA Hartford CT. on top in a Colt like address line aside from the S#'s no other marks.

My front sight is German Silver as is the trigger guard....

What I do know it was shown at the 94 Shot Show by USPFA (now USFA)
In a letter from USFA ,They stated they imported & finished less than 50 Navies and few Armies. Colt did this same thing with the BP series.
I also heard they had a Dragoon or two...
1994 , corresponds with about the time they were required to change their name from United States Patent Fire arms to USFA ( United States Fire Arms.
It was Colt the brought suit to force the USFA name change.

I mentioned, I've seen some Tradition's guns (mostly Navies) and they were less desirable ( as to fit, etc.)
They may have had issues, I'll never know , I passed...
But I did not pass this one, I traded a Uberti 1860 Army I had for sale, for it.
I'm not the least bit sorry ....

[deucedaddyj]

That's a nice looking gun there W.T.!

Coincidently (hope I spelt that right), Il Bastardo is the nickname given to me by one of the people I play music with. If I'm playing bass, it's modified to Il Basstardo.

[W.T.]

That's a nice looking gun there W.T.!

Coincidently (hope I spelt that right), Il Bastardo is the nickname given to me by one of the people I play music with. If I'm playing bass, it's modified to Il Basstardo.

Thanks - By Jingo, it is nice lookin', isn't it?  Who said a fatherless child hadda be ugly?

Looong work day today, but I did check in midday from a lousy dialup connection at the shop (graphic-intensive sites like Cas City are hell on dialup).  Major, I read your reply & called the range shop to ask them to check the markings for me & make sure I wasn't "remembering" your info rathger than what I actually read on the gun.  Fella confirmed that it says "USFA" in tiny script - in the same place that mine is marked "Navy Arms" - and NOT "USPFA" as I stated.  No scrollwork address.  He got busy & had to hang up, but I will go down again tomorrow if I am able and make notes this time.  Will take the digital camera & shoot a couple pix if they will permit it.  Sorry for adding to the confusion.

Major, it was my impression that the finish wasn't real impressive on this specimen - remember thinking that the angles on the barrel were not real sharp, that the finish was  dull, rather than worn.  However, if USFA also imported and finished only a very few of these things, then maybe somebody at the shop is also aware of that, thereby accounting for the stiff asking price for a homely pistol without a front sight (rather than just garden-variety gun shop 'optimism').  Hope i'll be able to get a little corporate candor from the guys down there...will get back with the true gen - be nice if it was a scarcity...

Smokin_Gun, I got on the horn to Deer Creek in Indiana, and the lady said they don't have the parts!  Will give Dixie GW a call per her suggestion.  If that doesn't work out, well, some kind of springs can be made to work & I guess I'll try to draw some steel and rough out a pin.  Chief worries are the correct the pin nose profile and the OAL...

Thanks to all,

W.T.

[Smokin Gun]

W.T. , I believe the Navy and Army Triggers are the same in the R-M as they are with the C&B Colt Navy and Army...maybe the forum can verify this.

[Major 2]

"....Major, I read your reply & called the range shop to ask them to check the markings for me & make sure I wasn't "remembering" your info rathger than what I actually read on the gun.  Fella confirmed that it says "USFA" in tiny script - in the same place that mine is marked "Navy Arms" - and NOT "USPFA" as I stated.  No scrollwork address.  He got busy & had to hang up, but I will go down again tomorrow if I am able and make notes this time.  Will take the digital camera & shoot a couple pix if they will permit it.  Sorry for adding to the confusion.

Major, it was my impression that the finish wasn't real impressive on this specimen - remember thinking that the angles on the barrel were not real sharp, that the finish was  dull, rather than worn.  However, if USFA also imported and finished only a very few of these things, then maybe somebody at the shop is also aware of that, thereby accounting for the stiff asking price for a homely pistol without a front sight (rather than just garden-variety gun shop 'optimism').  Hope i'll be able to get a little corporate candor from the guys down there...will get back with the true gen - be nice if it was a scarcity..."
................................................................................................................................................................................................

I'd rate the finish on my gun equal to USFA finish I seen on their standard guns ( not the Rodeo ) , along par with Colt Second Gen. BP series,
Crisp, fine polish , nice blue & case colors .
You mention (Gun store specimen) angles on the barrel , is it a Navy ?
As to rarity, they did not import or finish many, his asking price of $525 maybe fair for a unusual USFA , I just can't say,
I traded for mine and plan to continue to shoot it.
I have a Type II Richard on order , should be less than that.

[W.T.]

Major, I was not able to get back down to look again today, and I'm not trusting to even my recent memory anymore.  This thing had an octagonal barrel (hence the "rounded angles" remark - was there such a thing as an oct-barreled Navies?), but i cannot recall any "naval" scene on the cylinder.  I do not remember a Hartford or any other address, & don't think that there was one. 

Well, I gotta get pictures - sneaking off work and handling it for a bit - and not being able to get back yet! - is gonna make me nuts in light of your info on low import numbers & scarcity. I'd love to walk into a rarish piece two weeks after getting started.  I have not seen or handled any USFA pistols - just seen them here on the 'Net, & mediocre fit & finish is definetly not part of their program.  The guy on the phone was nonetheless very clear that it was "USFA" marked.

$525 might not be unreasonable if it's what we hope it is, you say?  I'm kinda concerned about parts, since I'm striking out on getting a source for OEM ASM parts for Il Bastardo so far - still, if I gotta go the weld-up/re-shape/harden route...

Cheers, & thanks for your info and patience,

W.T.

[Major 2]

Sounds like a 51 Navy, USPFA made these somewhere around 1994.
There is Photo of one, on this BB or maybe at the USFA website, belonging to a Citizen on this site.
I don't know how his is stamped USFA or USPFA or where.

Weather or not it's worth the $525 depends on condition ( you said it was dull and worn edges ) does not sound like their standard finish.
Unless, they were playing with an Original, Antiquing finish back then
(IF)  It's true rarity, there were upwards to 50 of these by USPFA. ( I think these were marked USPFA , not positive though )
Then it's up to you... and how bad you want it.
If it is a USFA , I might be inclined to make him and offer.   

Parts should not be a problem, I:E: Springs use Wolff , and try Uberti parts should be real close.

BTW, if the missing front sight is the post style ( I have one you can have )

Edit:
found the photo ...http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b363/major101/meyers.jpg

[W.T.]

Well, didn't get back - business partner leaving tomorrow for two weeks to handle family deal in Texas & I got myself & two part-timers to run a seven-day shop.  Won't be much looking, shooting, or anything else for a bit.  Generic 51 pics elsewhere on the 'Net look about the same (as I far as I can recall), but this thing was no way near finished like the one in your picture.

As regards the light primer strikes with Il bastardo, looking at the rear end of the firing pin where it protrudes under spring pressure to await a strike from the hammer, it looks like it may not be protruding quite enough to receive the full effect of the hammer blow for reliable ignition.  With the naked eye, it looks 'worn' but not peened.  Thought that I might strip the assembly down (sometime on the distant future) to see if the return spring (if that is the proper term) might not need replacing.  Is disassembly of the "ring" holding it straightforward?  Have gotten spoiled with all the takedown instruction available for old battle rifles and rimfires on the web, and jhoped somebody might have a link for OT detail-stripping to shorten the learning curve.