Author Topic: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins  (Read 28191 times)

Offline Forty Rod

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2006, 12:42:52 AM »
If you make a pair for Grizzle Bear they'll need port and starboard running lights.  ;D
People like me are the reason people like you have the right to bitch about people like me.

Offline Ottawa Creek Bill

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2006, 11:25:21 AM »
Gripmaker,
This is part of the material in my Originals Class persona, a very small part of the documentation:

A short Introduction to the Apache
The word “Apache”
No one knows for sure where or how the word Apache originated. Most scholars believe it stems from the Zuni ‘apachu’, their name for the Navajo, who the early Spaniards called ‘Apaches de Nabaju’.  Another alternative is that it originated in the rare Spanish spelling ‘apache’ of ‘mapache’, meaning raccoon,  representing the distinctive white stripes of war paint across a warrior’s cheeks just under the eyes which to the Apache is very attractive.

The Apaches referred to themselves as ‘nde’, meaning as do many Indian self-designations, ‘the people’.
Apache culture of the 19th century was a blend of influences from the indigenous people of the Great Plains, Great Basin and the South-West, particularly the Pueblos. As time progressed, influences from the Spanish and American settlers as well.

Tribal influence depended on geographical location in relation to these peoples, and the time and route of a tribe’s early migration. Tribal and individual divergences naturally occurred in what was a highly individualistic society.

Apache Tribes
The Apache language is what is referred to as an Apachean or Southern Athapaskan language, therefore the Apache can be divided into seven tribal groups: Navajo, Western Chiricahua, Mescalero, Jicarilla, Lipan, and Kiowa-Apache. Of the seven groups, the Navajo were a distinct entity because of the development in their culture and were considered a separate tribe by the other Apache cultures. The Kiowa-Apache separated from the other Apache groups sometime around, c. AD1300, before the influence of the Pueblos of the South-West.


The Kiowa-Apache remained on the north-eastern fringes of the South-West, and there were no historic political connections with the Apaches.
The Apache tribes most closely related to the Kiowa-Apache were the Lipan, who had a small influence of Plains culture and a weakly developed band organization.

Jicarilla
This tribe of Apaches ranged from the north-eastern New Mexico into southern Colorado. Jicarilla is the Spanish word meaning ‘little basket’. There were two bands of Jicarilla Apache.
Those living west of the Rio Grande were known as ‘saidinde’, or ‘sand people’, and were made up of six local groups. The eight groups east of the Rio Grande were the ‘gulgahe’n’ or llaneros, meaning ‘plains people, or Plains Apache.

Mescalero
The name is derived from the Spanish meaning ‘mescal makers’: a reference to their extensive use of the agave or mescal plant which made an important contribution to Apache subsistence.
The Mescalero’s domain ranged from the Sacramento, Guadalupe and Davis Mountains of south-east New Mexico and western Texas, and were divided into the ‘gulgahe’nde’, or People of the Plains, east of the mountains; and the ‘ni’t’ahende’, ‘earth crevice people’, living in the mountains.
The main Mescalero band were the Sierra Blanca, the smaller group known as the Faraones made up the southern division.

Chiricahua
Probably the most famous tribe of Apaches was the Chiricahua.
To the Chiricahua division into bands was far more important then the other tribes.

They were divided into three bands, each with minor cultural differences. The Eastern Chiricahua inhabited territory in south-west New Mexico, west of the Rio Grande. Their name was ‘cihene’ meaning ‘red paint people’, because of the red stripe of paint used on their faces. This group contained the Mimbres, or Mimbrenos, and Mogollon Apaches named after the mountain ranges they inhabited.
The Bedonkohe
Geronimo’s people the Bedonkohe, were sometimes identified as a separate tribe, they were most likely part of the Mogollon Apaches because their tribal traits were identical. The Eastern Chiricahua band (Gilenos) comprised the Mimbrenos, Warm Springs Apache and Mogollon Apache groups.

The second Chiricahua band were the Chokonens, also known as the central or true Chiricahua and the Cochise Apaches, after their war chief Cochise. Their territory stretched into Mexico and New Mexico from south-east Arizona’s Chiricahua Mountains, from which they derived their name.

The third band, the Southern Chiricahua was located south of the true Chiricahua, and ranged the Sierra Madre region of Northern Mexico. They were known as the ‘nednhi’, or ‘enemy people’, and were referred to as the Pinery or Bronco Apaches.

Western Apache
The Western Apache were located north of the Chiricahua tribe. The easternmost and largest group was the White Mountain Apache, whose territory ranged from the Pinaleno Mountains in the south to the White Mountains in the north.

They were divided into the Eastern White Mountain and Western White Mountain bands, and sometimes referred to as Coyoteros. To the north of the White Mountain Apache was the Cibeque group, whose lands stretched far north of the Mogollon Rim, to the west of the Sierra Ancha. They contained the Carrizo, Cibeque and Canyon Creek bands.

To the south were the San Carlos group, in the foothills of the Galuiro and Santa Catalina Mountains. They comprised the San Carlos, Apache Peaks, Pinal and Arivaipa bands, the last two possibly originating in the absorption of distinct Pinalenos and Arivaipa Apaches.

To the north-west were the Northern and Southern Tonto groups. The Southern Tonto, ranging from the Sierra Ancha and Mazatzal mountains, were divided into the Mazatzal band and six semi-bands. The Northern Tonto, lived south of the San Francisco Mountains, contained the Bald Mountain, Fossil Creek, Mormon Lake and Oak Tree bands.

Various names have been applied to all or parts of the Western Apache. They have been referred to collectively as Tontos, and as Coyoteros.

Division of the Apache Tribes
The Apache Tribes can be divided into three groups according to language, and to the time of migration into the historic area.
The Western Apache, Mescalero and Chiricahua form the typical Apache group, to which the Navajo originally belonged. The second group comprises the Jicarilla and Lipan, and the third group, the Kiowa-Apache.

Gripmaker,
As far as where they originally came from, most Apache historians and Native American historians such as myself,  believe they originated from where they are now and always have been. Most Native Americnas dispute the "Land Bridge" theory and recent archeological finds back them up. Most anglo scholars (?), believe that the Apache/Navajo came from somewhere in South America. No one wants to believe that the Native American was not originally here, and we all know why that is. So, how close am I to the information you have?

Bill
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Offline Ottawa Creek Bill

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2006, 11:28:46 AM »
Forty rod,
I don't think Grizzle Bear was serious, I'd have to kill at least three deer to have enough buckskin to make the uppers ;D ;D Man, I hope he don't see this. :P :P :P

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #23 on: Today at 03:55:32 AM »

Offline Gripmaker

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2006, 02:52:57 PM »
Bill,  I must certainly commend you upon your research on the Apache and Navajo. It is as informative as it is extensive and quite good. The theory I am referring to that has been accepted by more and more Archaeologists, anthropologists and historians over the past few years is that expressed by Dr. Ethel G. Stewart, a Canadian archaeologist, in her book, "The Dene and Na Dene Migration To America: Escape from Ghengis Khan". For many years it was (and still is by some) considered too drastic/outlandish an idea to accept until recently when much of her thoughts were verified by none other than the National Geographic on a trip to western China.  My understanding from reading both the book and the NG articles, the Apache and the Navajo are direct ethnic decendents of the Quiger (sp) pronounced "weeger" peoples of western China and the ancient languages are one in the same. This was realized during the filming of a documentary about these people by NG when a member of the group was able to communicate with the Quigers without linguistic problems. That person was taught the ancient Apache language by some one in his early youth and had used it on the reservation in NM while growing up.  I have not had a copy of the book or the NG article for quite some time now so can't give any better details than that. The book is a fascinating read even if it does stretch the imagination somewhat at certain points. One thing that may give more credibility to the book than anything else is that Dr. Stewart was supposedly allowed into the Chineese Archives in the Forbidden City during her research, one of VERY FEW Westerners allowed to do this. Since the article came out this incident has apparently been substantiated by NG. Sure wish I had kept up on this in recent years but instead got wrapped up in the Gallina Culture of north-central NM who has been proven by DNA to have been Mongols. Another fascinating study as I do have copies of articles and microfich from UNM archaelogy Dept.

Ain't old stuff interesting?

Offline Ottawa Creek Bill

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2006, 03:59:06 PM »
Gripmaker,
I do have the book...and if you will reread it you will not that the good Doctor said her findings were based more on theory then actual fact...somewhat like the interspearsed english words and phrases in the Nordic languages. Sorry, but you have to look at the foundation of her discovery, who wrote it (non-native), how her theory was formed and for what purpose. It has always been in the archeologist/anthropologist best interest to prove some how that the native american did not originate here..... If it could be proved for certain (which it can not) then it would be akin to discovery of a live wooly mamoth roaming around the hills of Nebraska. Next thing we'll be hearing is that Jesus brought us over here on a ship (or maybe some kind of astro projection device) when he disapeared for the 12 or 15 years of his life prior to his crusifiction, sorry I don't buy it.

Bill
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Offline Grizzle Bear

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2006, 07:27:12 AM »
OCB;

The Grizzle Bear sees all, hears all, and knows all!

 ;D ;D ;D

GB

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2006, 07:59:25 AM »
   May I add that many people (most Americans) have been conditioned (misled) to think the National Geographic Society is an authoritative source in the field of archeology and related fields.  This is in error, they have a particular adjenda and are not above misrepresenting the facts or inventing evidence (just downright lying) to support their presuppositions. 

Offline Frenchie

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2006, 08:27:34 AM »
Next thing we'll be hearing is that Jesus brought us over here on a ship (or maybe some kind of astro projection device) when he disapeared for the 12 or 15 years of his life prior to his crusifiction, sorry I don't buy it.

Bill

Oh, come on, Bill. Everybody knows Jesus brought your ancestors over to Peru in a flying saucer and landed it on the Nazca Plains.  :D
Yours, &c.,

Guy 'Frenchie' LaFrance
Vous pouvez voir par mes vêtements que je ne suis pas un cowboy.

Offline Smokey Three Toes

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2006, 10:07:57 AM »
Wow, this thread has really got off the beaten path.  Nice boot's OCB, really nice...

   STT
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2006, 10:49:07 AM »
Grizzle Bear, don't be to hard on Bill, we all know you have big feet, you've never done anything to hid them. ;)
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Offline Ottawa Creek Bill

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2006, 11:47:06 AM »
   May I add that many people (most Americans) have been conditioned (misled) to think the National Geographic Society is an authoritative source in the field of archeology and related fields.  This is in error, they have a particular adjenda and are not above misrepresenting the facts or inventing evidence (just downright lying) to support their presuppositions. 

Kid,
I think the majority of the NG researchers belong to the church(?) of scientology.
Quote
Oh, come on, Bill. Everybody knows Jesus brought your ancestors over to Peru in a flying saucer and landed it on the Nazca Plains.  Cheesy

Guy,
Watch it now, there may me an orgaization or two that belive that ;D ;D
Wow, this thread has really got off the beaten path.  Nice boot's OCB, really nice...

Three Toes,
Thankls for the compliment....but its all been in fun :D :D

Bill

   STT
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Offline Gripmaker

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2006, 11:07:03 PM »
OK Folks, enough of the weird stuff. The theory presented is only one of many alternative theories presented by reputable and some not so reputable scientists but it is gaining acceptance within the reputable community.  Being a Native American/Cherokee, I am quite interested in what the "experts" are saying about our roots. Bill, you still haven't expressed your personal belief as to where the Apache and Navajo came from. Please answer another question also, why is it so important to some that we did NOT come from another place other than North or South America? it certainly does not degrade nor lessen the importance of our cultures in any way. Personally I believe that we did come from another place since I am a Christian and believe the Biblical account of man's creation. The location outlined there certainly is not anywhere in the Western Hemisphere. I am really curious as to the location of our peoples before they came here. To date NO ONE has given a believable scenario I can accept.

Anyway, I echo the previous comment, "Darn nice boots, Bill!"

Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2006, 11:37:39 PM »
OK, boys & girls, here is where we are at today.  ;D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man


P.S. Scientists already know that DNA "bottlenecked" about 75,000 years ago after a super volcano exploded in the Mediterranean and mankind as a result was almost decimated, with approx. 1,000 -1,500 humans left alive on earth. Beyond even that, DNA has shown that every human alive today is descended from "Lucy", a primordial hominid from Africa (Kenya).  ;)

Offline St. George

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2006, 11:44:02 PM »
A couple of things...

This started out as a simple showing of craftsmanship - with a bit of arcane knowledge thrown in.

Then - it veered off towards the sizes of feet.

Then - to the 'Where'd We Come From?' question.

Soon followed by the 'What's 'Your' Personal Belief?' question.

Questions like that can generate some really 'interesting' responses and need to be asked privately - not on-line in a very public Forum setting - and effectively inviting all to play.

When that invitation's given - no one seems to be able to 'play nice'.

Beautiful workmanship - interesting arcana - along with a topic that engenders research.

We should be able to leave it at that.

Topics about Politics, Comparative Religion and the Origins of Man belong in a different Forum.

Vaya,

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Offline Ottawa Creek Bill

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2006, 07:57:06 AM »
Quote
Bill, you still haven't expressed your personal belief as to where the Apache and Navajo came from. Please answer another question also, why is it so important to some that we did NOT come from another place other than North or South America?
Gripmaker,
My personal belief is that they (the Apache/Navajo) originated where they are today, as do most of their tribal elders. As far as the second part of your question? I'm sure you were taught about Manifest Destiny in grade school right?

Now with that said, thats all I'm going to say on the subject, and as St. George said, we need to turn this post back to what it originally was, so, it you want to talk about religion, politics and what makes a Naitve American a Native American (such as being tribally enrolled, & active in your native american community, etc;etc;), I suggest we do it on another forum and not this one.....

Bill....who IS a tribally enrolled member of a federally recognized tribe
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Offline Smokey Three Toes

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2006, 09:45:40 AM »
Well said Bill, I agree with you, and St. George, this was only about the good looking Mocassins, not where we all came from.. Keep up the good good work Bill.

   STT
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Offline Ottawa Creek Bill

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2006, 12:56:18 PM »
Smokey TT,

Thanks....

Bill
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Offline French Jack

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2006, 09:06:41 PM »
We now return this thread to normal abuse......:P  ;P   :)  ;)  :D
French Jack

Offline Ottawa Creek Bill

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2006, 09:07:08 PM »
I was asked by one of the pards here, how the Chiricahua mocassins are tied on, so I thought I would post a close up photo of mine in use.......The tie strings at the top are tied around the cuff of the mocassins about an inch to an inch and a half from the top. The top tie strings should have enough length to go around your calf twice. The bottom tie strings that ties around the ankle also go around twice. I should point out that the lower tie strings are attached at the back of the ankle about two inches above the sole.

The holes are made by a round awl of appropriate size, never use a modern hand punch on leather as you are removing leather and holes punched with a hand punch will stretch way out of shape. Take the time and make yourself several awls of different sizes made out of deer leg bone, they will last you a life time.

The socks are the basic colorful women's socks that go to mid thigh on a woman, typical of the era. This was one of the Apache mens favorite items to obtain at the local trading post at San Carlos, or, other means if necessary, no explanation needed.....I hope.

I have a photo in my archives that shows a white scout (I believe for Crook) that is wearing a striped sock a lot like the one pictured and there are many photos of Apache men wearing them. I'll see if I can track it down and post it here.


Bill

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Offline Ottawa Creek Bill

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Re: Two Flints Chiricahua Apache Mocassins
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2006, 09:17:10 PM »
We now return this thread to normal abuse......:P  ;P   :)  ;)  :D

Bob........Yep.......
Colonial stockings should work perfect for this application. I got mine from Jas. Townsend & Son years ago and I see they still offer them.

 http://jas-townsend.com/product_info.php?cPath=5&products_id=240&osCsid=12ed33f31e89c14875ce4d2f3a0e0e14

Joss, I get mine from River Junction, but James Townsend as you say sells them also....

Bill
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