Race Gun Doesn't Like Warthog Loads

[44caliberkid]

    I posted this on the Gunsmithing forum, but guess I'll run it past you pards, since we share the BP jones.
    I am using an AWA Ultimate 1873 SAA.  It comes from the factory with lots of race gun mods, like a coil mainspring conversion, and a coil handspring conversion.  The bolt/trigger spring is flat steel but may be aftermarket too.   It is very slick cocking with a light hammer pull and works great with factory "cowboy" smokes less loads.  (forgive me for shooting the fad powder, but I had these around and needed to make some empty brass to load with the Holy Black.)
    Assuming everything was fine, I proceeded to shoot last weekends match with my usual 44-40 BP loads (200 gr. Big Lube over a stuffed 44-40 case 2F).  At the first shot, the cylinder wouldn't advance, and the cylinder pin jumped forward about half an inch.  I got the pin relocated and fired the next shot, tried to cock it and it wouldn't advance again.  I finished the stage by advancing the cylinder by hand while cocking.  The pistol worked fine unloading, while empty, and while reloading, but the next big boom put it out of commision, went like this all day.   I really think it's one of the wimpy springs.  Anyone had similar experiance with light weight springs?
    One of my fellow shooters suggested I could "download" my carts some, God forbid!!!
   

[Dick Dastardly]

Were it a Ruger, I'd take a close look at the cross bolt that holds the cylinder base pin.  It sounds like it's slipping under recoil.  Belt Mountain makes some great base pins if this proves to be the problem.  Of if the gun is under warranty I'd return it along with some of your favorite bp ammo and tell them to "make it work".  Just because the gun is fast doesn't mean it can't handle the mild pressures and recoil of full house bp loads.  There would be an issue if you were shooting 44 Magnum level maximum intensity loads of W296 et al. . . .

Sounds like a great gun and I think this small wrinkle ought to easy to fix and it ought to be able to shoot your favorite handloads.

Good luck,

DD-DLoS

[44caliberkid]

Thanks Dick.   As most firearms sold today the warranty only covers "factory loaded, cowboy ammunition" and is null and void with handloads.  That, and the warranty card was returned to me marked, "address expired, unable to forward".   As you said, I'm sure I'll iron out the problem.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Even though it is not a Ruger, I would still look at the engagement of the cross latch to the cylinder base pin. I would not be suspecting your other springs, I doubt if they have anything to do with the problem.

Before I fine tuned them, I had problems with my Colts' cylinder base pins jumping forward under heavy recoil. Sometimes if the base pin jumps forward enough that the rear end of it completely jumps out of the hole in the rear end of the frame, it is possible for the pin to go out of alignment just enough for the cylinder to be slightly tilted in the gun. If your pin jumped forward a half inch, it jumped way out of the rear hole in the frame. In that condition, the pin was completely unsupported at its rear. This is actually a dangerous condition to fire the gun in as the chamber and barrel may not be perfectly lined up anymore. If a gun is very tightly fitted, does not have a lot of slack in the system, it is entirely possible for the hand and bolt to be just enough out of alingment with the temporary position of the cylinder to jam up the cylinder. I have had it happen on my Colts. If a gun is a little bit loose, it tends to be less of a problem.

There are basically 3 fixes for a cylinder base pin that jumps forward. One fix is to install one of the slightly oversized pins made by Belt Mountain. Another fix is to install an after market heavier spring in the cross latch assembly, to keep the pin from jumping forward. The third fix is to carefully file the slot on the pin, at just the right place, so it engages the cross latch more positively. Sometimes it takes some combination of 2 or more of the fixes to get it just right. On one Colt, just the Belt Mountain pin fixed the problem. The other Colt needed the Belt Mountain pin and a little bit of custom fitting to keep the pin iin place under heavy recoil. I'm talking 45 Colt with a full case of BP and 250 grain bullets.

[44caliberkid]

Thank you gentlemen for the input.  Examining everything today, I think I've discovered it's that the hand is too short.  If I apply light thumb pressure to the cylinder while cocking the hand skips the ratchet knotches and the hammer cocks wthout turning the cylinder.   Comparing with other SAA's at full cock, the tip of the hand protrudes only about half as much as a Uberti or Beretta.   I can also apply quite a bit of resistance to the other guns and they will still turn the cylinder.  I think once it fires, the cartridge face against the breech provides enough resistance to make it skip.   Have to get a new hand from AWA and fix it up.

[Dick Dastardly]

Dang, I hate it when a pard buys a new gun and it won't run out of the box.  Makin' it slick after issue don't make it quit, only run better.  The folks that make the gun ought to make sure it will work.  If, as a matter of competition, you do some mods, yer on yer own.....   But the new gun should work rite out of the box.

Now, please relax and don't dump on me, but I shoot only Ruger wheel guns.  Each and every one of 'em has worked "out of the box".  I've made some of my own mods, but the guns never failed to work if I kept within factory tolerances.

I want yer guns to run rite.  If they don't, take a hangin' committee with a short rope to the seller.  There's no reason for sellin' junk to SASS pards.

DD-DLoS

[litl rooster]

Dang, I hate it when a pard buys a new gun and it won't run out of the box.  Makin' it slick after issue don't make it quit, only run better.  The folks that make the gun ought to make sure it will work.  If, as a matter of competition, you do some mods, yer on yer own.....   But the new gun should work rite out of the box.

Now, please relax and don't dump on me, but I shoot only Ruger wheel guns.  Each and every one of 'em has worked "out of the box".  I've made some of my own mods, but the guns never failed to work if I kept within factory tolerances.

I want yer guns to run rite.  If they don't, take a hangin' committee with a short rope to the seller.  There's no reason for sellin' junk to SASS pards.

DD-DLoS

That is ditto on rifles and shotguns also...............Git a rope

[Noz]

Bend the spring on the hand a little to put a little more tension on the hand and thus make it protrude a bit more. Had the same problem on a Remington. Fixed it!

[sundance44`s]

Some of the race gun mods are nothing more than putting per mature wear on your gun parts ... not me i wear mine out myself plenty quick !  yep even the cowboys / gunfighters did it .. they called it sweeting one up .

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

After reading your comment, I have to agree with Nozzle Rag. I think your handspring is either weak, or needs to be bent a little bit. When a hand comes through short, it is usually just short by a few thousandths of an inch. Replacing it with a new one, the new one will only be a few thousandths of an inch longer, hardly noticeable. I've never heard of a hand so short that it did not properly engage the ratchet teeth.

I think it is far more likely that what you are seeing is the spring is not forcing the hand forward enough, and you are seeing less of it protruding from the recoil shield than you should be. Don't bother replacing it, just put some more tension on the spring, and the hand will be forcd forward enough to properly engage the ratchet teeth. As I said on the post on the other part of the forum, I think far too much premium is placed on weak hand springs, and the ability of the cylinder to spin for a long time.

Let me ask you this question: When you put the hammer on half cock, and spin the cylinder, does the cylinder sing nice and loud with a strong ratchet sound, or is it a whispy quiet whisper? If it don't sing loud, your handspring is too weak.

[44caliberkid]

   As stated earlier, the hand spring is a coil conversion, like what a Ruger has.  I think it is too weak.  But I've also tried to hook the tip of the hand with my fingernail, to see if it would come out farther if it had more spring pressure and it doesn't.  Someone may have been too agressive with a file or grinder while tuning.  I'm going to try removing a little material off the front, below the tip of the hand, to see if that will allow it to come through the window farther.  It's not a matter of a few thousandths, it's like one or two 32nd's shorter than my other pistols.  After I get it to protrude far enough, I'll take the spring in to Brownells and see if the have something the same diameter, but stiffer.   I'd really rather have the flat steel spring as I've never had trouble with one, so if I can't do anything with the stock parts, I'll switch to the more common style.
   There is a long, convoluted, story about how we even came into possesion of this piece, and it has been a cursed endevor from the git go.   But I'm pretty good at SAA engineering, so I'll get it worked out one way or another.  It also came with the front sight a good (and obvious) 4 or 5 degrees the the right of verticle, so first thing was to screw the barrel in the rest of the way.  I'd say someone was asleep at the switch at AWA the day this one went through.
   No wonder the first owner fired 10 rounds through it and sold it.   I've had one other AWA, a 44 Special, that wouldn't group and turned out to have a chamber mouth diameter of less than .425.  There's reasons you find these cheap from time to time.
   Thanks for your suggestions, gents, I'll post a follow up when I get her fixed.

[sundance44`s]

Good test for a weak hand spring point the barrel down at the ground and fully cock the hammer see if the cylinder fully locks up ... then point the barrel at the sky and fully cock the hammer ... when pointed up it doesn`t index propper or lock up .. it`s more than likely the hand spring thats the problem .