Clothing

[Silver Creek Slim]

Camille,
I have bought some clothing from Goodwill such as wool vests, wool suits, wool coats, and banded collar shirts that button all the way down. Yes, they are period correct, but not as common as the pullover shirt. I have made some shirts and pants. If you consider the time you spend making them, even at $10/hour, plus the material and patterns, it is more economical to buy the clothing. But, it you what something you cannot buy at a store than it is worth it. I have bought clothing from The Fort, also, which is quite reasonable.

I was going to post this somewhere else, but since you brought it up...

"In regard to my picture, I have none here, and have no show at present to have one taken, and as for my scouting costume, it was ever the same as that of any roving man; for, during my twenty-one years of fighting and hunting hostile Indians, I never wore long hair or buckskin clothes."

The above was written by Al Sieber on April 7, 1904. He was General Crook's Chief of Scouts.
http://www.geocities.com/~zybt/sieber.htm

Slim

[Books OToole]

I'm affaid fall front pants are out of style by the NCOWS time period of 1865-1899.
  (Narrow fall pants are out of style by the 1830s and the broad falls are gone by the Civil War.)

My wife makes most of my Living History clothes.  However she is having a mental block on vests.  Consequently most of my vests are thrift store conversions.  I have two wool, two linen and one cotton vest, that I have converted.* [See the November-December 2005, Shootist.]  I have a corduroy and a silk one yet to be converted.  Plus one very nice gray (black & white tweed actually) that is going on the trade blanket this week end for $ 25.00.  And all of them are documetable to the period. [Time-Life Old West Series, The Scouts, page 200]

Books



* If I can do it, any one can do it.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Well, so much for thinking that I had this straightened out.  Even if a photo is documented as original and from the time period it doesn't count unless it was a casual photo?  Posed ones don't count?  There weren't many casual photos taken back then.

Camille,
I wasn't saying you couldn't use a studio (posed) photo, sorry if thats the way it came across. Any good documentable photo of the period can be used as long as it is backed up with accurate documentation/research. The point about native american women wearing pants is that it was not the normal thing for our women to do and there is no first or second hand accounts of them doing so, either by native american historians or non- native american historians.

The upper photo of the young girl is probably very accurate since those are more then liikely side seam/flap leggings common to most indian tribes throughout america. The bottom photo with what looks to be fringed pants is the one that is not something you would see on a indian woman of the period.

I'm wondering if any of the originals use posed photos for their documentation and what the rules are there. Huh

Yes, most of us did, but they were accompanied by first and second hand research and documentation. 

One other thing I wanted to add: Lone Gunman and I are putting together a package that contains all the documentation/research that the members of the Originals did when putting together their persona. It is going to be put on a CD and will be made available to any NCOWS member (free) that wishes to see, and or use it.
It will save the individual time in research and will give them several ideas on how to build their own persona, and where to find the research if you are having trouble. You don't have to shoot the originals category to be able to use this material. Hope to have it done by the first of the year.

Bill

[Silver Creek Slim]

Books,
Do you have, per chance, pictures of these different kinds of pants and/or descriptions?

Slim

[Books OToole]

Slim;

Narrow fall pants are like sailor pants with less buttons.  Any good art work of the American Revolution will show this style flap although they will be on knee breeches rather than full length trousers.  War of 1812 era military pants were narrow falls.  Rene Chartrand's book on the Uniforms of that War is an excellent source.

Broad falls have a flap that goes from hip bone to hip bone.  They show up in the George Caleb Bingham paintings from the 1840s & 1850s.

Hope that helps;

Books

[Sod Buster]

Broad falls have a flap that goes from hip bone to hip bone.  They show up in the George Caleb Bingham paintings from the 1840s & 1850s.

I believe I have seen broad fall pants on Amish/plain men of both our time period up to current.  Am I mistaken?

[Silver Creek Slim]

Thanks, Books.
I found a picture of narrow fall.


Slim

[Camille Eonich]

Heck just because they were out of style did not mean that people didn't wear them on a daily basis.  I mean, look at Del.   Seriously though, many people just aren't concerned with what is in and what is out and they just wear what they like.


There's is no way that you will ever see me wearing any of that crap that is in style for women right now and most of the women that I know feel the same way so it's not just a "tomboy" thing.


But are you saying that since it was what was popular earlier that it's not ok to wear for NCOWS?

[Ol Gabe]

Sod Buster & All,
Yes, essentially most Amish 'Plain' pants are that way, some localized patterns or regional styles may vary but they are mostly the same. In addition, what we would call Bib Overalls also fall into that category as the side buttons are used for an access flap that runs down the outside of the hips, thusly making it the largest of the 'broad falls', but rarely, if ever, called that.
Early styles of these Bibs had a side to side front chest cover with one single center pocket, some styles none, a pair of wide straps with one button in the collar bone area that went over the shoulder to a wide single 'Y' strap in the back, others stayed split as two straps that attached at the base of the back/hip area where they squared-off. Again, regional styles and patterns varied as material and local needs demanded changes. Patterns for these can be found easily at many of the NCOWS vendors. A frequent supporter-vendor at the NCOWS Convention has shown up wearing a pair he made from a pattern in dark blue denim the past few years and Boy, Howdy! They look good!
Military 'Coveralls' from the last half of the 1800's were somewhat the same, the Brit's used a style that was quite popular in the Cavalry, they were worn in the Stable when tending to the horses. Many of the Lancers in the infamous Charge of the Light Brigade wore them into battle that day, they had been under duress due to inclimate weather and a lack of adequate resupply so they began to wear them over whatever uniform/clothing they could get their hands on just to stay warm and protected from the elements on the stark and barren plateaus of the Crimea.
Bibs in these styles are period correct for NCOWS, surprised that we haven't seen more working personnae developed around them other than the occasional Railroad theme. Technically the Plain Amish wear S.B. suggests would also be in that time frame and the stlye may fit any number of working personnae such as laborer, Miner, Railroad Gandy Dancer, Drover, Stock Yard Hand, etc., etc.
Best regards and good researching!
'Ol Gabe

[Books OToole]

I would say that if you wanted to wear fall front pants; that would be something that would require documentation that they were still being worn. 

How many poodle skirts do you see worn today?   I am not exactly a fashion plate, but I won't wear what I wore in the '70s. [Even though there is porbably some of it still in my closet.]  I think is was Madison that they made light of for wearing knee breeches in the 1820s.

I think that you would be much more likely to be using a muzzle-loading rifle that wearing fall front pants.

Sorry;

Books

[Delmonico]

I am not exactly a fashion plate, but I won't wear what I wore in the '70s. [Even though there is porbably some of it still in my closet.] 

Books

Please post pictures pard, this could be fun.   Might be a fun thread down in Tall Tales.

[Dr. Bob]

Del,

Books is no fun!  I will be wearing a 70's shirt when I go tango dancing tonight.  Might have to get the 70's pants to go with it!  `Course I am a fashion plate. [Or a legend in my own mind?]   

[Delmonico]

I think I'm going to dig a bit and start that in Tall Tales, it could be fun.

"Of course at 3 or so like the new avatar I wanted bibs like both of my grandpa's.  

[Books OToole]

Actually some of the plaid pants that I wore in the '70s look just about like the ones Lone Gunman was wearing at the Nationals.  Except for the god-awful flair.  Maybe I could just tuck the flairs into my boots.  Naw, they wouldn't fit.

Books

[Chantilly]

Books, those pants you are talking about could be altered rather easily to remove the flair and the zipper, belt loops, etc.  However, I'm recalling an awful lot of polyster from the 70's......I never have been fond of that stuff!

OCB - I apologize that I was not clear.  I didn't mean that Native American women ever wore men's pants.  The leggings worn by Native American women are similar (not the same, just similar) to women's bloomers with the split crotch.  To non tribal people and also non educated people as to the tribal cultures and ways, the leggings were probably identified in their writings as "pants" as the term was used in the late 19th century.

"Pants" or bifurcated garments were considered men's clothing and not considered by the majority as proper for women.  Traditional European/American women's clothing from the waist down was not bifurcated, ie petticoats and skirts. 

pants - (usually in the plural) a garment extending from the waist to the knee or ankle, covering each leg separately

Camille - I like the research, especially this kind of topic - women wearing pants.  Women's lives during the last half of the 19th century is incredibly interesting (to me) - a time of rapid change in women's roles and freedoms such that they were but certainly better than when women were considered as property!  I love the shooting too - SASS and NCOWS!  I've been digging through research documenting women with or using weapons during the time frame. I'm constantly amazed!  When I get enough research together on women and weopons, I think it will make for some interesting discussions as is the topic of women wearing pants. 

Another topic that is interesting is the constant desire of women (rich and not, rural and urban) to remake clothes into the newer fashions.  Though they might (not all did) wear pants under more narrow circumstances, nearly all women wanted to be seen in the best attire they could afford in the most current fashion that they knew about when in social situations - it was very important.  I've even found some newspaper articles about women that bankrupted their family because of their desire for the latest fashion.  Fashion was a statement of success and standing in the community.

I'll try to get some pictures of women in pants posted.  I think you will find them interesting.

[Chantilly]

Farm woman...American Costume 1867.  The American Costume included trousers under the skirt which differed from the Bloomer Costume with what else but bloomers under the skirt!  Wisconsin Historical Society, Whi-2382

[Chantilly]

Vivandiere - Civil War

[Chantilly]

Miners 1880s

[Chantilly]

Sweet sisters in mountaineering attire 1890s - Yosemite

[Sod Buster]

I am not exactly a fashion plate, but I won't wear what I wore in the '70s. [Even though there is porbably some of it still in my closet.] 

I still wear the same style that I wore in the 70's (or even the 60's).  A button-down shirt and a pair of khakis or chino slacks seems to remain in style for the last 50 years.