Square loads?

[J.J. Ferrett]

Excuse my ignorance, but, what do people mean when they talk about 'square loads'? ie. "i just finished a 3 dram square load'

[Cuts Crooked]

It means that the load is constructed with the same VOLUME of shot as powder. Ergo, a measure that throws a 3 dram charge of powder would also be used to measure the shot charge. IE 3 X 3.......square.

[Dick Dastardly]

Cuts is right on, as usual.

A "square" load in bp is usually a good starting point to work up loads for your scattergun.  Also, get out your record keeping notebook and write down the exact recipe.  Then, shoot some paper and, if ya kin get yer hands on one, shoot over a chronograph.  Write down the results with that load.  Experiment with different wad columns and materials.  You will find the one that works best, as in the most uniform and smallest pattern, in your particular scattergun.  They are all diffenent.  I've seldom found a SxS that was well regulated enuf that both barrels shot to the same point of aim.  Take notes.  A SxS is really two guns.  You may find that one barrel prefers one load and the other, another quite different load.

Sounds like a lot of bother, but when the KD targets have to fall you want everything going for you.

DD-DLoS

[Noz]

Just built my first square loads for my 20 gs SXS. Used Lee's 4.0 cc dipper. 7/8 oz of 9s and 58 grs of RS. Yee-Hah! Quite a bit hotter than my normal smokeless loads. LOTs of smoke, fire and stuff going on.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I don't have the references handy, but the English references ( the writings of the UK shotgun guru - GOUGH THOMAS, I think.) to a "square load" go a bit farther than Cuts Crooked has outlined.

A pure "square load" is not only equal volumes of shot and powder, but the HEIGHT of the column is the same as the diameter of the bore.

Most loads I have seen in this forum are not too much off as there are practical limits to what can be put in a hull.  I can think of an easy and practical way to start.  Look at the volume of shot in a standard, or light, commercial load.  (generally; 12 gauge = 1 1/8 oz.,   20 gauge = 7/8 oz.) and then use the same volume of black or replica powder. Use caution with 777, as it has a bit more Oomph (So I've been told.  I bought the first can available, but havn't opened it!).   Once you have some experience with your load, you can vary it.  More for hunting, and less to lower recoil.  Always  use that greatest of all shooting aids, your brain!

As most mentors are saying in this forum, a tighter pattern, and nearly identical results for CAS targets, and in the field at moderate ranges,  can be achieved with as much as 1/3 less powder than shot. In brass hulls, the total load column height is not critical.  Use your usual wads.  I use a built up traditional wad column. (O/P card, cushion wad, and finally an Over-shot card fixed with glue,etc.)  Others use plastic wads, and I won't argue if it works for you.  In Star, or Roll crimped hulls, column height has to be adjusted for a proper crimp, and there are some very good suggestions to be found in The DEN.

Goood Shooting, and keep on smokin'.

[Goatlips]

"the HEIGHT of the column is the same as the diameter of the bore."

Thanks Sir Charles, that adds a lot of meaning to the term Square Loads!

Goatlips

[Cuts Crooked]

A pure "square load" is not only equal volumes of shot and powder, but the HEIGHT of the column is the same as the diameter of the bore.

That's interesting, and one I've never read before. Leaving a question: What length shell would work for this in any given gauge? Ergo in twelve bore I've loaded 2 1/2", 2 3/4", 3", and even 3 1/2" with black powder. (those last two were for a friends single shot 'turkey killer'..impressive when they went off too! ) I would assume, not always a good idea, that Thomas would have been working with 2 1/2" shells since he is from the UK? Of course all would be moot in the case of brass shells because you load the column to any height you want. But with paper/plastic this might become problematic?

If the 2 1/2" is the proper case to get and equal length/diameter load, then those with scattergunz built for the newer standard, 2 3/4", might/could be looking at a bit of difficulty. They could of course load 2 1/2" rounds but the jump from the shell to the cone would probably blow thier patterns all to heck when using card/cushion wads.

Sorry, jist thinkin' out loud there.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Cuts;  You are right.  In the UK, the traditional 12 bore load was a 2 1/2" hull with 1 1/16 oz of shot.  I say traditional, as I've just returned from the UK, and shot with my son and some colleages at Sandhurst.  It was just a fun shoot for these blokes, and a YL, to get a taste of shooting.  The loads we used were standard 2 3/4" club loads.  I didn't  check the shot quantity.  As many present day shooters use autos, despite what the purists say, standard loads are a must.

The traditional load sounds very much like a 16 guage, doesn't it?

Here in western Canada, the blackpowder rules for cartridge shotgun are quite specific.  NO PLASTIC INSIDE THE SHELL.  That doesn't apply to CAS, but as most BP shooters come from muzzle loading clubs the tradition dies slowly.  I still use traditional wadding.  Yes, I find myself using a lot of fillers.  My favorite is paper pulp egg carton material.  As for "blowin' the pattern", that is not my experience, but do some patterning if you wish.

I cut off some plastic cases due to split necks. (Either that or the garbage bin!)  Below the folding area of the crimp, the case is quite thick.  I made them about 2  5/16 ", and loaded them like a brass hull. glued in O/S card, and all.  If you have a roll crimper, use new shells and cut them  exactly to the max chamber length.  I didn'thave a roll crimper.  It was just an experiment.  Too much bother, unless you NEED a short round.

A square load is great for bird shooting, and CAS.  It balances effectiveness with reasonable recoil in light field guns.  Of course it is just a starting point.  I draw the line by not loading a greater volume of powder than shot.

I wouldn't worry about 2 3/4" hulls.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I asked my son if he knew where my Gough Thomas was.  Didn't find it yet  (I have two houses in cities 500 miles apart!)

The question i wanted to look up was the SHOT WEIGHT TO GUN WEIGHT ratio.  My son just completed the British military shotgun range officers course at Sandhurst, where he teaches, and he knew the answer!

The gun should weigh at least 96 times the weight of shot you wish to use.  This results in manageable recoil.  This figure originated with the founder of Holland & Holland.

For example if you wish to shoot an ounce of shot, the gun should be 96 ounces, or six pounds.  As Americans usually shoot 1 1/4 oz., the normal gun weight in America is 7 1/2 pounds, or 96 time the weight of shot.  The "traditional" UK load for the 2 1/2 " case is 1 1/16 oz. of shot, but the gun can weigh as little as 6 1/4 Lb. 

Make sense?

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho St Charles,

That makes my 10ga a mite light at 12-1/2 pounds.  It ought to weigh 15 pounds according to that formula.  No wonder I kin now clap with my shoulder blades. . . .

DD-DLoS

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Dick, who flaps his shoulder blades;  (Golee!  I'm starting to sound like Paladin UK!)

Sounds like you could easily drop your load to 2 oz, and about 150 gr of single F.

[Adirondack Jack]

So now the wife is lookin' at me like I'm gone round the bend for sure.  Got the gram scale I use to weigh quantities of brass set up on the kitchen table, weighing shotguns.

Oddly, the big ole field gun with the 30 inch tubes I just acquired weighs almost exactly the same as my chicom coach gun (coach gun has a mercury stick in the stock), at 8lbs 2 oz.  Doing the math I should be good with a 1.35 oz. load in terms of "manageable", but my surgically rebuilt neck says 1 1/8 is enough.

I do suspect the long tubed gun will be more comfy, the nose weight helping it some.

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho Sir Charles,

I loaded 'em big loads fer big feathered and furry things.  They kill yotes flat.  They'll do geese at 60 yards if I do my part.  I won't say the load, but it has 2.5oz of #3 nickel plated buffered shot in it and it ain't for shootn' steel.  Pressure runs around 10000 lup.  Pattern is as tight as a death ray.   It'll blow a 2x6 in half at ten yards.  There is sure a lot of room to put stuff in 'em 3-1/2" Federal 10 ga hulls.

For SASS match shootn' with it, I'll follow yer advice and back 'em down to 2oz and the steel varments will still die promptly.  I'm workin' up some 2-7/8" paper shells for bp shootn'. I may even go as light as 1-7/8 oz. . .  Don't want to be called a gamer, ya know. . .

DD-DLoS

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

A GAMER WOTZ FLAPPIN' HIS SHOLDER BLAIDS!!  LOL   LOL   LOL

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Bump!

[Dick Dastardly]

Now my new (to me) Winchester 87 10ga takes shorter ammo.  I'm runnin' 1-5/8oz of shot over about 100 grains of Fg.  The gun will never have a tight pattern cuz some clutz cut the barrel off at 20".  Soon as I get a new hammer spring installed (old one was welded and is too puny) I'll take it back to the line.

For some reason or other that big culvert of a barrel puts out a very distinctive cough and I can get several KDs with one shot every now and then.  I think it's very Bar Room PC. . .

DD-DLoS

[Paladin UK]

Fer DD....

Pard ya jest gotta post some piccies of that big ole scattergun doin its Thang!!

Paladin (Whats never shot a mighty 10!! ) UK

[Cuts Crooked]

Double D,

Mebbe send that thang to Coyote Cap and have him put a tube in it, in fact have him fit it with two 'r three so it'll be a "gun fer all  seasons"! (smartest thing I ever did wuz to have him fit tubes to my Chi Com 97, it's a dandy all around gun!)

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Dick;  You have two 10 gauges don't you?  A Spanish double with 3 1/2" chambers, and a 1887?

As I suggested in the beginning of this thread, there are three factors.

1.  The Gunmakers rule;  The guns should weigh at least 96 times the intended shot-weight for a balance of portability, recoil, and effectiveness.

2.  Is the SHOT load square?  That is, the height of the SHOT column is the same dimension as the bore diameter.  This gives a balance of effectivness of each pellet and even patterns.  Here is the approximate shot weights for square loads.  Gough Thomas quotes tests and calculations for the 12 gauge with #6 shot intended for game birds to reach the 1 1/16 ounce figure.  The other gauges I estimate based on generally available "light" loads.
      20 ga.- about 7/8 oz
      16 ga.-    "       1  oz
      12 ga.-    "      1 1/16 oz
      10 ga.-    "      1 1/4 oz

3.  The volume of Black Powder should be no more than the volume of shot.  Less powder, as low as 30% less, tightens chokes, & vice versa. This is what most people think of as a "square load".

In CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD, 3d Ed., I note that the 19th century load for the ten gauge was up to 5 drams of powder and 1 1/4 oz. of shot.  Canadian C.I.L. loaded 4. 1/2 oz dram equiv. over the same 1 1/4 oz for their game load.  Dick, depending on the weight of your '87, you might drop the shot weight a bit.  Your powder load looks light enough.  I like Cuts' suggestion of choke tubes.  You might also need a larger bead,if the gun shoots high.

My apologies if I sound a bit pedantic.

[Dick Dastardly]

The big Spanish SxS is chambered for 3-1/2" 10ga ammo.  I'm sure it was meant to kill quackers and honkers from a blind.  Far to heavy to lug around the partridge woods. . . .  I've shot SASS matches with it, but it's not a good bar room gun.

The 87 is a true 87.  I looked up the SN and patents.  Yup, it's not an 01.  The chambers are 2-5/8".  The gun thrives on cut down Remington steel shot 10ga hulls.  I use the band saw.  The roll crimp is a thing to behold.  It is absolutely perfect.

So, yes, it's worth fixin' up.  I thank Cuts for the choke tube suggestion.  There's plenty of good metal to cut the rebate and threads into and then with Three tubes it would answer for a lot of missions.  It's a fun gun.  I can see this gun settling disputes over the counter. . .

BTW, a "light" load of 1-1/4oz of fineshot easily tips any KDs I've seen.  That big tube sure makes a great BOOM.

DD-DLoS