Cartridge NCOWS legal?

[Adirondack Jack]

Howdy,

I'm wondering if somebody could tell me if the Cowboy .45 Special cartridge, which has a .45 Colt case head and shorter .895 case length, would be legal for NCOWS use?  This question came to me and I need to get back to the feller.

Now I really have no sure answer, but I read where those cases that are replicas of old timey obsolete BP cases are ok.  The Cowboy .45 Special is reallly close to a couple of 19th century designs, notably the .455 Colt/Eley, Webley Mark I, which was a very slightly shorter (.009 to be exact) BP round of the period.  On that basis would the Cowboy .45 Special be considered a reasonable replica of the old Colt/Eley case?

Thanks in advance for your advice,

<<Jack>>

[Cuts Crooked]

I'll see if I can't drag some of the better versed pards out of chambers fer ya! This one is interesting!

[Lone Gunman]

Since it is a modern invention your product would need to be submitted to our Authenticity Committee and work it's way through the approval process:

7-3.  The Territorial Congress shall establish and maintain a list of firearms and calibers approved for official competition. This list will be reviewed and up-dated yearly. Members wishing to have a particular firearm or caliber added to the list must petition the Territorial Congress and supply full documentation attesting to the historical authenticity of the firearm or caliber.

         7-3-a.      Petitions from members seeking to add replica firearms to the "approved" list (see By-Law 10). or to seek approval of disputed items of replica apparel or equipment, shall be made through the Authenticity Committee, to be chaired by the Judge.

        7-3-b.      A successful petition must have at least the following: (1) a minimum of two (2) primary published references proving the historical existence of the original of the petitioned replica firearm or item. Such references must adequately describe the original item being reproduced, prove its availability, use, or manufacture for sale during the time period 1865-1899; and/or (2) A minimum of one (1) dated period photograph, woodcut, engraving, catalog, and/or advertisement of the original of the petitioned replica firearm or item, or a photograph from a collector's reference (such as Flayderman's) proving that the original of the replica firearm or item did exist and could have been used during the period 1865-1899; and/or (3) an actual artifact representative of the petitioned replica firearm or item, properly authenticated and documented as to time period.

        7-3-c.      The Authenticity Committee may refer any petition back to the petitioner for additional information or evidence. The Authenticity Committee shall report its recommendation in writing, including all evidence, to the Territorial Congress within ninety (90) days after receiving the petition. The Territorial Congress shall then accept or deny the petition at the next Congress Meeting after receiving the recommendation of the Authenticity Committee.

        7-3-d.      An unsuccessful petitioner may appeal the decision of the Authenticity Committee to the Territorial Congress.

Just FYI, similarly inspired items such as short stroke kits, alloy carriers, lightning rods, etc have all been deemed not within the basic tenets of NCOWS.

[Adirondack Jack]

Similarly inspired?

I'm asking because there ARE cartridges that are allowed that have no historical basis, and there are other cartridges with historical roots that are not available, such as the .455 Colt/Eley (last loaded by Dominion of Canada in 1930), but sure were loaded for the original NCOWS-legal irons, and if ya could get the brass, the guns would be fine.  This cartridge, which is so close ya could use the ELEY brass in it's place and the dies wouldn't knbow the difference, is no more or less "suitable" than those original period BP rounds.  So a pard asked if he could use em in NCOWS and I said I would ask.

I specifically did not ask if they could be used in NCOWS in a short stroked Marlin rifle, as I know what "inspires" that and I know that is contrary to NCOWS philosophy and would be disallowed and I got no issue of "inspiration" there at all.

If I sound prickly, perhaps the reading of my "inspiration" was taken for granted and misread when nobody asked why I asked the question.

I thank you for the opinions.

[Lone Gunman]

Sorry AJ, I wasn't tryin' to poke you with a stick    I was referring to the 'inspiration' for your invention itself.  The banner statement on your website says:

The Cowboy .45 Special
The first purpose built cartridge for action shooting games

and goes on to state that the purpose is to reduce case capacity, reduce recoil and improve stage times. I was only trying to point out that other modern  inventions whose stated purpose was to improve stage times have usually not been approved. It wasn't my intention to question the inspiration behind your posting of the question. If you'd like to have your product reviewed by our Authenticity Committee by all means send it in.
The address is:

National Congress of Old West Shootists
PO Box 221
Cedar Falls IA 50613

[Adirondack Jack]

Sorry AJ, I wasn't tryin' to poke you with a stick    I was referring to the 'inspiration' for your invention itself.  The banner statement on your website says:and goes on to state that the purpose is to reduce case capacity, reduce recoil and improve stage times. I was only trying to point out that other modern  inventions whose stated purpose was to improve stage times have usually not been approved. It wasn't my intention to question the inspiration behind your posting of the question. If you'd like to have your product reviewed by our Authenticity Committee by all means send it in.
The address is:

National Congress of Old West Shootists
PO Box 221
Cedar Falls IA 50613

I understand and I won't argue that aspect a bit.

Lemme ask ya this however, if a feller shows up with .45 Colt cases cut back to Schofield length, is he "legit" if he says "I'm running Schofields, never mind the headstamp?  Not having been to an NCOWS shoot I dunno how this works?  If the answer is no, he has to run the "proper" brass, and can't run "wrong" headstamp cases even if dimesnions are correct for some realistic case, then OK, I get it.

If the answer is yes, then I would respectfully submit that he could cut Colt cases back to .455 COLT ELEY, (which was loaded in many gun, including Colts, during the period portayed), and be legit regardless of headstamp.  Now if he could do that, then it seems he could use my brass and call it .455 ELEY in the same way some folks say they run .38 long colt when they are using cut off .38 specials, or .44 Russian when they are running cut down .44 special or magnum.  Headstamps get ignored.

[Trap]

  A J
   As judge of NCOWS I would urge you to petition Congress to approve your cases. PM me and I would be glad to help you get the process going.      jt

[St. George]

For what it's worth - neither Sears, Roebuck, nor Montgomery Wards - arguably the two largest suppliers of pretty much 'everything' - catalog the .455 Colt Eley as an available cartridge.

Not surprising - when one understands that the round is an English one.

In truth - the .455 Colt Eley was being loaded in many guns as has been stated - and it 'was' being loaded on the Frontier - the 'North-West Frontier' that Kipling wrote of...

We call it 'Afghanistan' today.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Cuts Crooked]

I understand and I won't argue that aspect a bit.

Lemme ask ya this however, if a feller shows up with .45 Colt cases cut back to Schofield length, is he "legit" if he says "I'm running Schofields, never mind the headstamp?  Not having been to an NCOWS shoot I dunno how this works?  If the answer is no, he has to run the "proper" brass, and can't run "wrong" headstamp cases even if dimesnions are correct for some realistic case, then OK, I get it.

If the answer is yes, then I would respectfully submit that he could cut Colt cases back to .455 COLT ELEY, (which was loaded in many gun, including Colts, during the period portayed), and be legit regardless of headstamp.  Now if he could do that, then it seems he could use my brass and call it .455 ELEY in the same way some folks say they run .38 long colt when they are using cut off .38 specials, or .44 Russian when they are running cut down .44 special or magnum.  Headstamps get ignored.

Ok Pard, now you see why I wanted to get some better versed NCOWS members involved in this question! I'm fairly new to NCOWS and don't have the level of of knowledge that some of these pards do!

Now, I'd like to take a moment to offer my thanx for your contribution to CAS in general. I think that what you have created will ultimately become a very popular item in some CAS circles! You are to be commended for your efforts!

My thoughts as pertains to NCOWS, again keeping in mind that I am certainly not an expert: The use of of certain calibers that did not exist in our time period is a result of those calibers being available at the time that CAS got started. Many old time calibers simply weren't being made anymore and the guns that fit the time frame, in current production, were chambered in modern calibers such as 38 special/.357 or .44 mag/special. So they were "grandfathered" in. And NCOWS appears to have a history of retaining such things, once declared legal. Which is only fair! Changing the rules after a period of time would be a major PO factor for those who had been playing the game with those things for an extended period. (FWIW, I've seen a lot of these "since 'this' is allowed then 'this' should be too discussions. This is the reason for it  plain and simple) As to running differing headstamps...if it's done to keep a gun in the game for which ammo is not readily available, ergo if you have an old Colt chambered for 38 Long Colt that you want to shoot, then I see no problem with the idea. I suppose that it's possible that some pards push the envelope at times and use such such ammo in a .357 but I don't know that to be a fact.

So....I would highly recommend that you take Trap up on his offer to help see if it can be approved. If this case does indeed substantially ressemble an old cartridge case that is no longer available it is entirely possible that it will be approved. The opposit is possible too, but "nothing ventured, nothing gained"!

[Adirondack Jack]

I will forward the information provided to the feller who asked, along with the recommendation that the petition process be used.  I didn't know what to tell him, nor was I at all familiar with the NCOWS rules and practices other than peripherally, as to my knowledge there exist no NCOWS matches near me.

  FWIW, on the historical aspects,  the .455 COLT/ELEY was loaded by Dominion of Canada for a long time, ending in 1930, and of the rare rounds still found to exist are those that occassionally are found in estate sales and such right here in northern NY (handguns having been banned so long in Britain there is almost none existant), where it USED TO BE no big thing to find folks travelling back and forth across the border to buy and sell stuff, including guns and ammo, back before we and Canada both got so twisted up about such things.  The big old colt and S&W WWI era guns in .455 are pretty common finds here as well, with the webleys and such of the late 1800s a little less so but by no means rare.

Though of course the SAA is seen as the prototypical gun in the west, it sure wasn't alone, nor were american guns.  A nation of immigrants of of global trade, I would suspect that say, San Francisco had as many European and Russion guns as American

The other "parent" round, the .450 Adams was a webley precursor, and that is a British round that was never made on this side of the pond, but sure was shipped here during it's short 7 year lifespan before it changed in construction and dimensions, as were guns that used the very novel innovation that came with it, Boxer Priming (1866).  I have disassembled some of the original 1866-73 iron-based boxer primed cases, and used both the HB lead bullets and the 13 grains of FFFG, loaded in my "replacement" brass with new primers, and sure enough, it is a near dead ringer ballistically to what I am running now (225 grains at 700 FPS was spec, I got around 650 with the old powder, some of which was lost as it fused to the decayed primer).

While it is true I market the Cowboy .45 Special as a light recoiling and economical load, the research leading to it involved testing and/or replicating these fine BP rounds that had a reputation both for accuracy and for effectivenes in their day.  I was attempting to bring back the success they had in very accurate and effective, yer mild mannered rounds at a time when compared to our .41 and .44 rimfires, they were seen as beastly.   AAMOF, one version, called the "manstopper" was deemed too brutal for military use after expanding bullets lost favor around the turn of the 20th century.

So I thank you gents.  I learned something, and will pass it along.

[DArchangel]

please see Buffalo Arms Co.450,455 brass and/or loaded ammo.

[Adirondack Jack]

please see Buffalo Arms Co.450,455 brass and/or loaded ammo.

Yep, these are the later smokeless varients and are pretty close.  The .455 and the short colts being the REALLY short cordite cases

Thanks.

[Will Ketchum]

Adirondack Jack, first I applaud you for asking.  With that said I doubt that anyone would even notice  what you were loading at the loading table.  Most of us are more concerned that the guns are loaded properly and safely.

There are plenty of legal rounds that can be loaded for light recoil.  My favorite round. the 44 Russian is one of them.  Even with a full case of black powder there isn't a lot of recoil. The same with the 41 Colt and the Schofield.
  Each of us have to determine just what it is we are trying to accomplish in this sport.  If it's to try to capture what our 19th Century forefathers experienced that is one thing.  If it's merely to win a cowboy shoot that is another.   I believe that NCOWS leans more towards the former.  If this is a shooters goal then that should determine what loads he shoots in his guns.   Personally I have no problem with a cartridge that emulates the 455 Eley.

Will Ketchum