Triple 7 45 colt load ?

[Adirondack Jack]

For quite a while, my FC standard .45 Colt load was a 250 generic meister or whatever midway had on sale, and 23.5 of 777 FFG.  A little more snappy than a 22 grain load (by weight) outta the rugers,  and really barks outta the 24 inch Marlin.

[Marshal Tac]

I am curious about a couple of the things I have read about 777, as I am just begining my transition to the "dark side" and have been dabbling with 777 before taking the plunge into the "real" stuff.... Can someone explain to me why Hodgdon warns against using fillers like grits, in conjunction with this powder? Also, does anyone know why they advise against leaving any "air space" between the bullet and the powder? ( Excuse my ignorance.. this is my first experience with the "dark arts")

I have loaded up a few boxes of shotgun shells with 777 with Winchester AA hulls and Winchester "red" wads, with a basic "Square load" and been pretty happy with the result. I also loaded 50 rounds for the .45 Colt using some 250 grain Laser cast smokeless lubed bullets (part of the reason I chose 777 to start with, as I have a lot of these bullets on hand for use with my heathen loads). I loaded them to the base of the bullet, as directed by Hodgdon's web site, with little or no compression and a tight crimp. I was amazed at the accuracy I got and the easy clean up, but I would like to reduce the recoil somewhat.

I haven't had the chance to shoot the 777 loads out of my '73 yet, but if they perform like they did from my pistol, I am sure I will be happy.  Because I want to shoot the same load in both my revolvers and my rifles, I do not want to go to the ".45 Special", due to the shorter case length, and subsquent feeding problems with the rifle....

Is anyone using "fillers" with 777 safely, or reducing the load , even though they advise against it? If so, what kind of results are you getting? Any help would be appreciated.

[SFT]

Maybe I can help answer at least some of your questions, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
As far as leaving air space in any black powder load, real or substitute, black powder is made to be compressed, even if it's ever so slightly, and not doing so can lead to a sudden increase in pressure, moreso than any modern steel firearm can handle, and this includes muzzle loaders as well as cartridge applications.  You do not need to overly compress BP loads either, just a little.  I think the reason Hogden doesn't recommend the use of fillers due to the wider variance of material used as such, as it may cause uneven ignition, pressure curves, and burn rates, plus may also increase wear on your gun.  Since they cannot control such things that one might add during the reloading process they'd rather just advise against it.

As far as I know, you can use a wad to take up space between the powder and bullet, however it is advisable to use a dry wad as opposed to one that's already lubed such as the Ox Yoke wonder wads, if you intend on storing the ammo for longer than a few months.  Triple 7 isn't supposed to be as hydroscopic (sp?) as either real black or pyrodex, but water, oil, grease, etc., will render powder inert or partially so, very quickly.  Using a wad in the brass may also cut down on fouling as well.

I am curious about a couple of the things I have read about 777, as I am just begining my transition to the "dark side" and have been dabbling with 777 before taking the plunge into the "real" stuff.... Can someone explain to me why Hodgdon warns against using fillers like grits, in conjunction with this powder? Also, does anyone know why they advise against leaving any "air space" between the bullet and the powder? ( Excuse my ignorance.. this is my first experience with the "dark arts")

I have loaded up a few boxes of shotgun shells with 777 with Winchester AA hulls and Winchester "red" wads, with a basic "Square load" and been pretty happy with the result. I also loaded 50 rounds for the .45 Colt using some 250 grain Laser cast smokeless lubed bullets (part of the reason I chose 777 to start with, as I have a lot of these bullets on hand for use with my heathen loads). I loaded them to the base of the bullet, as directed by Hodgdon's web site, with little or no compression and a tight crimp. I was amazed at the accuracy I got and the easy clean up, but I would like to reduce the recoil somewhat.
What amount of powder are you using for your shotgun shells?  How if the recoil compared to other factory loads and how was the cleanup?  I've been looking for examples of 777 shotgun loads so I can reload for at least one all black powder match.

I haven't had the chance to shoot the 777 loads out of my '73 yet, but if they perform like they did from my pistol, I am sure I will be happy.  Because I want to shoot the same load in both my revolvers and my rifles, I do not want to go to the ".45 Special", due to the shorter case length, and subsquent feeding problems with the rifle....
The .45 special won't work in anything but a modified 1894 Marlin, but the loaded round is different enough to where you can't confuse it with regular .45 LC, or even a schofield length case, but if you are looking for less recoil as well as substantial powder savings, it's the way to go.  There's also plenty of smoke and boom and no loss of accuracy, so out of a pistol no one can accuse you and shooting mouse pharts.

Is anyone using "fillers" with 777 safely, or reducing the load , even though they advise against it? If so, what kind of results are you getting? Any help would be appreciated.

[Marshal Tac]

Ok, so I understand you correctly, the reason for the compressed load is to avoid a spike in pressure that could be caused by the uneven burn rate of the powder if air space is left.... And that use of a "non-lubed" wad is acceptable, even though Hodgdon recommends against it?

Is any one out there having good results with use of a wad, and if so, what are they using as a wad material?

[River City John]

I use no wad, load the case with FFg 777 so that the slug compresses the powder about 1/16th" in a .38sp. I use a Meister bullet, 158gr with the blue lube intended for smokeless.

[Marshal Tac]

I read that a certain Capt. was using caulk backer rod as a wad in some loads with good success. I am curious to know if this is possible with the 777, even though it is not recommended by Hodgdon. I haven't found anyone who is willing to publicly admit that they loaded 777 "out of book" by using wads/fillers.

I can't seem to locate any APP locally, and all I have available at this point is 777. I would like to down load to a "middle of the pack" round that would reduce both, my velocity and my recoil. As it stands now, with the full loads I am using, I have waaaaayyy more smoke that I need, and quite a bit if recoil to. I am afraid that I might be breaking the "speed limit" with these rounds out of my rifle, for match use.

If I can "have my cake and eat it too", I would be very happy, if I can't because it's dagerous, then I will stop trying to find the answer and go to something else, when the opportunity presents itself. I just need some solid answers beyond "Hodgdon doesn't recommend it".

[Noz]

I know this is the answer to a question that hasn't been asked but: I have used Pyrodex, Pinnacle and Goex FFFg so far in my Remingtons. To this point the Goex FFFg (much to my surprise) has been the best performer and the easiest cleanup

[Dick Dastardly]

Cleanup with Genuine Powder is made easiest if the bullets carry enough lube to keep the fouling soft.  With enough lube, regardless of type, bp cleanup is made very easy.  It's the lube.  More is better.

DD-DLoS

[SFT]

Hodgdon shows 30 grains by volume( I assume they have allready allowed a 15% reduction) as the load for 45 Colt with a 250 grain LRNFP bullet. I calculate weight by grains to be about 22 grains. Does that sound like it is a safe load?

From Chuck Hawkes website and articles;
http://www.chuckhawks.com/triple_seven.htm

"In 2002 Hodgdon did it again, introducing their "Triple Seven" loose powder. Triple Seven is apparently an ascorbic acid (sugar-based) propellant that is far more efficient than blackpowder or Pyrodex, with corresponding increases in muzzle velocity. ........carbon-based fuels need, err, carbon to burn. If not charcoal, there are few more economical options than sugar. The problem has always been the carmelization process, where several previous attempts have failed to achieve consistency, but Hodgdon has finally done it right. In no way a "black powder performance substitute," the pressures generated by Triple Seven are greater than the Pyrodex or blackpowder genre products, and so are the muzzle velocities."

The Hodgdon Basic Muzzleloading Manual is FREE and it's available at Hodgdon dealers! Also, it can be requested by visiting www.hodgdon.com, by calling 913-362-9455, or write Hodgdon Powder, 6231 Robinson, Shawnee Mission, KS 66202.

What's the difference between____?
http://www.chuckhawks.com/difference_black_powders.htm

[Marshal Tac]

I answered my own question today at a match. 777 does real well in a reduced load using the caulking backer rod as a filler. MUCH less recoil, still enough smoke to keep the RO's coughing and accurate enough to hit the long targets in the rifle.

[h c ramrod]

Howdy Pard's just gettin into loading 777 for the 45 colt usin 22.5 grns ffg , shoots real good
wonderin if it's safe to use the lee disc powder measure with the 777 i did load three hundred rounds usin it
just want to make sure im not tackin a risk with the plastic hopper.

if yah could stir me right , i would apreciate it.....

[Dick Dastardly]

I load all my main match black powder ammo on my LEE Pro 1000.  I use the auto disk and have no problems.  I've loaded many thousands of rounds and have no worries about the "plastic" boogy man.  Your mileage may vary.  Mostly, don't smoke in your loading area.

I'll continue to load my black powder ammo on my press and I won't worry about an explosion.  That said, you are responsable for your own actions.  I doubt that you will find a blanket statement saying that what you are doing is safe and absolving you of all blame if you blow something up.

Keep your loading area clean.  Keep the amount of ready powder at a usable minimum in it's original containers except for the powder in your press.  Don't smoke or have any heat source, ie soldering iron etc., around when loading ammo.  Although static electricity hasn't been shown to cause a bp explosion, don't do things that will generate a lot of static electricity.  Have a fire extinguisher that is serviced and ready in your loading area.  These are a few common sense, easy to do, good practices regardless of the kind of powder you are loading.

Also, your press manufacturer may specify a primer brand.  There's a reason for this.  Unless you have a good reason not to, follow the manufacturers specifications.  Some presses can set off primers outside the case.  This would be just what is needed to get some powder burning, especially if there was a chain fire of a whole tray of primers.  Black Powder is an explosive.  It explodes in free air.  If contained and ignited it will probably burst the container catastrophically.  So, be careful with primers.  Of course, this care is extended to any powder used in handloading.

Much of the above information seems obvious, but many that read this wire are not experienced handloaders.  If I can keep just one of them from getting hurt, I will have served my pards well.

Sorry about getting wordy.

DD-DLoS

[Adirondack Jack]

Hodgdon specifically approved 777 for use in measures designed for smokeless.  Of course ya still gotta figure out the weight/volume thing like always with subs

[h c ramrod]

WELL PARD'S THANKS FUR THE INFO , YAH KNOW THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN TALK ABOUT THE STATIC WITH
PLASTIC. THE THING IS NOW EVEN THE REAL BP COMES IN PLASTIC CONTANERS.
MY FREINDS SAY I AM ONLY PART WAY THERE AS A DARKSIDER , THEY SAID I WILL GET THERE WHEN I CHANGE TO THE REAL THING 
OK THANKS AGAIN I KNOW ITS MY CALL WHAT HAPPENS..............RAM