Webley Top Break Revolvers

[Two Flints]

Hi Boss,

Came across this very interesting information on Webley revolvers and thought I'd post it here, if there are no objections.

Two Flints


Type: Revolver, Double Action
Chamber: .455 British service; .38/200 (.38S&W)
Weight unloaded: 995 g (Mark 1 - Mark 5 with 4 inch barrel); 1100 g (Mark 6)
Length: 260 mm (Mark 1 - Mark 5 with 4 inch barrel); 286 mm (Mark 6 with 6 inch barrel)
Barrel length: 4 inch (101 mm) Mark 1 - Mark 5; 125 mm (some Mark 3 and Mark 4); 152 mm (Mark 6)
Capacity: 6 rounds


The first top-break revolvers were developed by the Webley & Son company (Webley & Scott Co. since 1897) of Great Britain in the 1870s. First Webley revolver had been officially adopted for Royal Army & navy service in 1887, as a Webley Revolver, .455, Mark I. It was a break-top, six shoot, double action revolver, chambered for blackpowder .455 British Service cartridge, officially known as Cartridge .455 revolver, Mark I. This cartridge launched heavy, 18 gramms (265 grains) lead bullet at relatively slow muzzle velocity of 180 meters/second (ca. 600 fps). Later, smokeless version of this cartridge had been adopted, but since it also could be fired in early revolvers, the gain in the velocity or muzzle energy was very minor.

All Webley top-beak revolvers featured two piece frame, which hinges ("breaks") down at the forward low end for ejection and loading. The ejector is actuated automaticayy when the frame is broken open, simulateonusly removing all six cases from the cylinder. The cartridges then can be inserted by hand. In the case of revolver being rechambered for .45ACP round, half-moon clips are used to load the gun (two clips, each for 3 rounds). All Webley revolvers were Double Action or Double Action Only, with very distinguishable shape of the barrel and frame lock with lock lever on the left side of the frame and V-shaped lock spring at the right side.



Below is the list of all Webley revolvers, officially adopted in Great Britain. Many other variations were also manufactured for civilian and police use.

Webley revolver, .455, Mark 1. Adopted in 1887, chambered for blackpowder cartridge. 4 inch (101 mm) barrel, "bird head" shaped grip. (shown below)




Webley revolver, .455, Mark 2. Adopted in 1894, almost the same as Mark 1, but hardened removable steel blate was added at the back of the frame breech, hammer was strenghtened, grip was slightly rounded. (shown below)



Webley revolver, .455, Mark 3. Adopted in 1897, this was Mark 2 with improved cylinder to frame lock. Cylinder can be removed for cleaning. Since 1905, some Mark 3 revolvers were also made with 5 inch (125 mm) barrels.

Webley revolver, .455, Mark 4. Adopted in 1899, this was an improved Mark 3, made from different steel, with smaller and lighter hammer and wider cylinder slots. Since 1905, some Mark 4 revolvers were also made with 5 inch (125 mm) barrels. (shown below)



Webley revolver, .455, Mark 5. Adopted in 1913. Mark 5 was designed to accept smokeless (cordite) ammunition, and thus, had larger and stronger cylinder, and accordingly redesigned frame.

Webley revolver, .455, Mark 6. Adopted in 1915, it was the "ultimate" Webley .455 six-shooter. Mark 6 featured redesigned, more squared grip, 6 inch (152 mm) barrels, removable front sights. Mark 6 revolvers were manufactured by Webley & Scott until 1921, later these were manufactured by Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock. Oficially rendered obsolete in 1932 with the adoption of the Enfield No.2 .38 caliber revolvers, but widely used by British troops during the World War Two. (shown below)




Webley revolver, .38, Mark 4. Oficially adopted for military service in 1942, this was initially a scaled-down version of the .455 Mark 6 revolver, chambered for .38 S&W cartridge, and developed by Webley & Scott in 1923 for police use. These guns were oficially regarded obsolete as late as in 1963. It should be noted, that oficial british .38/200 ammunition was based on early, blackpowder .38 Smith & Wesson cartridge, and was used with heavy 200 grains (13.4 gramms) bullet, leaving the muzzle at relatively slow velocities of about 198 meters/sec (650 fps). (shown below)

[Virginia Gentleman]

I have a Mark IV made in 1917 that has been cut for .45 ACP and I use .45 Auto-Rim cases with big heavy .45 Colt bullets in it with very good results.

[gotzguns]

have a royal irsh constabulary pistol in 450 webly. not a top break but a great belly pistol. shoots a short little 45 cartridge but has a hell of a kick. wouldn't want to connect with one. short 3 1/2 inch barrel, six shot, double action. gotzguns

[E.R.Beaumont]

Howdy Pards and Pardettes.

Two Flints, Pard I think that your information might mean the first topbreaks made by Webley were in the 1870s, but as we can plainly see the Webley is a double action development of the Schofield model. 

The frame mounted latch is stronger than the barrel mounted latch but S&W went back to the barrel mounted latch so they would not have to pay Schofield or his estate.  The Brits had no problem cause Schofield had not patented it in England.  I have no heartburn about it, but if S&W had gone back to frame mounted latches, they may not have had to develop the hand ejector.

Now if in his fertile mind was turned to it Happy Trails may be able to develop an after market kit to make the Schofield a double action.  Wouldn't that be an IDPA gun, I'll bet N-frame speedloaders would fit it just fine.

That is all I think I know.
Regards, Beaumont

[ColonelFlashman]

Yep, that just about covers it.
I've a tick or 2 of Webley's that I use upon occasion & they are some of the Best Revolvers ever made.

Cheers

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Virginian;  Is that a "typo" in your post?  Isn't it a Mk VI, not IV?  By 1917, I think all Webleys were the Mk VI

[Virginia Gentleman]

You are correct Mark VI not IV.  Question:  What type of blue finish did Webley use on their guns, rust blue/belgian blue or nitre blue?  I am curious since I am in the process of restoring and refinishing one.

[ColonelFlashman]

On early firearms "Rust Blue" or "Nickle" on the Later ones "Nitre Blue or Black" or "Nickle".

[geo]

where can i get  bird's head grips and a lanyard swivel and mounting bolt for the .455 webley? there was a source in vermont but i cannot find them anymore. thanks in advance, geo.

[ColonelFlashman]

Gun Parts Corp.

[Big Jim Dandy]

Webly Mark VI - Special order?

This revolver is equipped with a 4" barrel & the original front sight has been cut down,
so that a silver colored post & bead front sight could be fitted to the barrel. I'm told
all Mark VI's had 6" barrels only. I'm also told that Webly & Scott did special orders!
The Serial No; 455200 is well outside the Service Model Serial no. range.

Any comments?

[ColonelFlashman]

Looks to be a "Cootie Bob" of a previous owner to me, as I've yet to see a S.O. Mk.VI Webley in that configuration.

[Big Jim Dandy]

The front sight is the only part of the barrel that may be a "Cootie Bob",
by which I assume you mean an at home replacement job?

However the barrel has not been shortened in any way. I can say this as I also
have a Webley & Scott Mark IV .32, ( .32 S&W Long?) 3" barrel, and the muzzle/barrel end of the Mark VI
is identical in form & finish to the Mark IV, no sign of cut down whatsoever!

So do I have a Factory Special Order gun? I was told on another forum that Webley & Scott did
do special orders after the war.

[ColonelFlashman]

It could very well be a S.O., but of those that I've handled, the sight has Always been intregal to the Bbl.
The only time I've seen sights Similar to what you have there has been on a Taget Model.
I've also seen Gunsmiths do "Cootie Bobs" on Bbl.'s that looked as if it were originally done @ the Factory.
None of my formidable books on Webleys show this configuration on a Mk.VI, but.......

[Big Jim Dandy]

Colonel;

Thanks for the input. It's quite interesting & challanging to try & find out if one has
a factory produced S.O. or if it's an aftermarket job. 

I suppose I might never get the real answer, but I do enjoy hearing from as many
collectors/affecianados, as possible, regarding what I may or may not have.   

The other quirk to this piece is that; not only has the rear of the cylinder been
cut down to handle .45 ACP, with Half-Moon Clips, & .45 Auto-Rim, the cylinders have been bored out
so that .45 Colt cases will fit. I only have to seat the bullets a little deeper
then my regular Colt loads & the revolver will cycle & shoot them. Go Figure.

Another piece to the puzzle!

[ColonelFlashman]

If there's been that much done to it, then it's been completely "Cootied Bobed" by a former owner or by the Importer to make it more saleable to the U.S. public.

[St. George]

Apparently, back in the '60's and '70's - converting (read - 'ruining') these venerable weapons was considered the norm - but an un-altered service revolver will always bring a premium price - as opposed to an altered one.

I remember importers' ads from that time frame that had both converted cylinders as well as shortened barrels.

Like Sir Harry says - none of my own extensive reference material on Webleys indicate any factory work of this nature being performed.

Most likely, it was done prior to importation - probably in England, as there were some talented folks with the needed experience to produce a workmanlike piece, to make it more desireable to the American buying public.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Big Jim Dandy]

Gentlemen;

Let me assure you that I'm not trying to prove I have a S.O. or perhaps a 'rare"
Mark VI for the following reasons:

1. It only cost me CAN. $75.00
2. It is a "Prohibited" Firearm in Canada. I.E. If it has a barrel length of less than 101 mm. ( 4")
.25 or .32 Caliber it is Prohibited. If you did not own one before Feb. 1995, you are not "Granfathered",
and can never own one.
3. Guns in this class are being dumped or given away. I have a number of "Freebies" in my safes.

All that being said, I have a critical question regarding the Mark VI. Did any of them get shipped from the
factoiry with 4' barrels. If the answer is yes, then the attached photos will explain what happened to my
revolver. If the answer is no, how could anyone, other than the factory, alter a 6" barrel to a 4" barrel,
so perfectly?

The barrel is 4" from muzzle to chamber opening.

I await your comments with interest.

[Big Jim Dandy]

More Photos.

[Big Jim Dandy]

Last 2 Photos