Civil War Ballard Carbine in Spencer 56-50

[Dai.S.Loe]

OK here I am asking questions again.

I have, this weekend, been to see the owner of an original Ballard carbine in 56-50 caliber.

I didnt know much about the rifle before going other than it was a Ballard. I was interested in purchasong it to do up to use in  long range competition shooting.

After viewing the rifle and talkng to the current owner (in his 70's) I was offered the rifle for US$620.

It needs restoring. It needs lots of TLC. It needs to be shot again. What a wonderful rifle. Serial number is 104x

The old man explained to me that his grandfather purchased the rifle from an American who came to New Zealand in 1866-67.

When he bought it the American took it out of his trunk where it was stored with his military uniform. Aparrently this member of your country had had enough of war and came to NZ and set himself up in business as a SHOEMAKER.

The old man I spoke to today told me that his grandfather had pased the rifle on to him when he was a very young boy.

The woodwork shows its age, all battered and worn. The action has a light rust all over but the action stil opens and the manual extractor is still working fine,

The barrel has lost all blueing and has patches of pitting, its bore is dirty but I can definitely see rifling down there. Needs a damm good clean.

There is a written family history with the rifle including the name of the American who brought it to this country. The current owner will dig it out for me.

I have just tonight sold one of my motorbikes to pay for the rifle. I am enmaoured of it and its history.

Now for my reason for posting in this group.

It is chambered for the Spencer caliber 56-50. If I can restore this rifle I would love to shoot it but know absolutely nothing about the caliber. Where can I get brass?

Where can I get moulds for this calibers projectiles? What sort of loading in BP should I be able to use? How accurate is this caliber and to what range?

I told you I am a complete novice. To this caliber not to shooting or BP, so all you Spencer shooters help me with your advice. Tell me about the 56-50 round.

I have been talking to a machinist today and he thinks he will be able to take the original and use it as a template with which to mill a new receiver for me. He wll do it for cost of the material as he is as intrigued bymyself with it. I will try and input the dimensions into CAD to see how it will go there. Do I sound excited. I should as I have always wanted an original firearm from the US Civil War and now I am going to get one.

Dai

[Two Flints]

Dai,

Great find!  Regarding the 56-50 caliber, if you go back and view some of the earlier posts on SSS, you will find a lot of 56-50 information that you may be able to use for your Ballard.  I'm sure the SSS members who shoot the 56-50 caliber will respond to your questions before to long; they have been a wealth of information!

Is this what yours looks like?  http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/al1493.htm

Two Flints

[BobM]

Dai are you sure that it's in 56-50 and not in 56-56? Most Ballard rifles where chambered in .46 rimfire Except for those made by Dwight,Chapin Which where chambered in 56-56. In order to fire it ,it has to be converted to centerfire which can be done by deepening the slot where the hammer is in the breechblock and adding a striker to the bottom face of the hammer to as a firing pin.

BobM

[Dai.S.Loe]

Dai are you sure that it's in 56-50 and not in 56-56? Most Ballard rifles where chambered in .46 rimfire Except for those made by Dwight,Chapin Which where chambered in 56-56. In order to fire it ,it has to be converted to centerfire which can be done by deepening the slot where the hammer is in the breechblock and adding a striker to the bottom face of the hammer to as a firing pin.

BobM

Going up this comming weekend to pay for and take possession of the carbine.

I have just sold my spare motorcycle to get the cash for it. Good job I had 2 bikes.

I should have all the family history of the carbine also.

Excited would be an understatement.

Chris

[Tuolumne Lawman]

A better way to go would be to get some of the Dixie cases that use a 22 Blank set in the rim to fire the powder.  It only works in single shot mode in the original rimfire Spencer, but the rimfire Ballard would handle it well, as it is single shot.  Much easier than changing to center fire.

[Dai.S.Loe]

I pick up the carbine on the 31st of this month.

I have learned that htis carbine was issued to a particular unit in the Federal army.

I have learnt the soldiers, who brought it to NZ, surname (Roderick)

I have also learnt not to assume too much. The actual caliber is 56-52

I am rapidly seeking out the history of this carbine and its original owner.

It is real fun.

Dai

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Cartridges of the World states that Springfield Armoury developed the 56-50 in 1864 for the 1865 model Spencer.  Spencer himself didn't like it as he thought it had too much crimp.  He developed the 56-52 in 1866, which was slightly necked.  .56-52 was mainly a commercial sporting item.  COTW states that they both function in most later model Spencers.

I read somewhere that after the failure of the .58 rimfire musket cartridge, Spencer took it upon himself to discover the largest rimfire cartridge that was serviceable.  Apparently his 56th attempt was successful, which leads to the prefix 56 in front of the caliber designation.  Anyone heard this before?

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Howdy,

I believe that the 56-56 Spencer predates the 58 rimfire musket by 6 years, as the .58  rimfire was introduced around late 1865, early 1868. It was developed for the 1866 Allin conversion of the 1861/63 Springfield rifle musket.  They also tried a .50 caliber rimfire, then settled on a .50 centerfire using a Benett (sp?) internally primed centerfire that looks like a rimfire, except for the circular crimp about 1/4" above the rim.  It was copper cased like a rimfire, also.

In the Spencer, the "56" designates that the case is .56 inch in diameter.  Originally in 1860 Spencers the .56-56 was simply refered to as the "Number .56 rimfire cartridge."

[Bead Swinger]

Dai -
Wow - What regiment did you say had this Ballard rifle?

I concur that the fastest way to shoot would be the Dixie cases w/rimfire .22 blanks.  Load with BP, and put a good ball on top. Then there is no conversion necessary. 

Rapine used to sell a nice 400 gr. RNFP heeled bullet for 56-56 originals shooting from cut down 50-70 brass. I can look up the mold number at home if you like.

Bead Swinger

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Tuolumne Lawman;  I reread COTW3d Ed.  It supports what you said.  the 58 rimfire isn't really mentioned, but the .50-70 was in service in 1866,  Barnes says it was developed from the Joclynn .50-60-400 rimfire.   .56-56 was patented in 1860 and manufactured in quantity by 1862.  Isn't this fun?

BTW it is "Benet"

[Tuolumne Lawman]

The 56-56 Rapine mould is great.

With hard cast, it threw a 379 grain bullet, .535 diameter, with a rebated base for the case mouth.  I still have a mould inccase I get another 1860 model.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

H0owdy,

I think they have it (58 rimfire) in the Specifications and descriptions sections for obsolete rimfires.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

PS

They also talk about the development of the Allin and its cartridges in Workmans "Firearms of the American West, vol2 1865 to 1984"

[Dai.S.Loe]

Dai -
Wow - What regiment did you say had this Ballard rifle?

I concur that the fastest way to shoot would be the Dixie cases w/rimfire .22 blanks.  Load with BP, and put a good ball on top. Then there is no conversion necessary. 

Rapine used to sell a nice 400 gr. RNFP heeled bullet for 56-56 originals shooting from cut down 50-70 brass. I can look up the mold number at home if you like.

Bead Swinger

This rifle was  according to the serial number 1288, issued to the 12th Ohio Vol Cav.

[Dai.S.Loe]

The 56-56 Rapine mould is great.

With hard cast, it threw a 379 grain bullet, .535 diameter, with a rebated base for the case mouth.  I still have a mould inccase I get another 1860 model.

Any idea where I can get this mould and what the reference number is?

[Two Flints]

Dai,

Is this link of any help to you?

http://www.buffaloarms.com/search.htm?viewfrom=1&searchterm=spencer&s_category=-1&s_vendor=&orderby=name&step=2&searchmode=all&prices=0&oper=gt&searchprice=0&numresults=10

Two Flints

[Dai.S.Loe]

Two Flints I thank you once again

Dai

[Bead Swinger]

I'll concur with Tuolumne Lawman - The Rapine 535370 mould is a very good buy.  It is built to make 56-56 RNFP rounds, which probably is what you should be shooting.  Have you slugged the bore?

If you get the Rapine, be sure to cast them a little on the hard side - perhaps a 10 on the hardness scale.  Since it is a heeled bullet, really soft casts don't survive handling very well - the ball will begin to rotate and pull out of the case.  With that beautiful-sounding Ballard, it probably won't matter as much. If you weren't in NZ, I'd send you a few to play with.

I've had very good luck with the Buffalo Arms 56-56 cases made from Starline 50-70 cases too (aside from some minor extraction issues).  4D-Die also makes a nice full-length die set. The starline 56-50 brass is really nice, but the rim is a little small for originals (not sure why they did that) - hence if it's an original, Buffalo Arms is your best source for cener-fire brass; Dixie for the rim-fire brass (then you need .22 blanks to act as primers).

My only concern is that 56-52 came out late in, or after the war, and the Rapine .535 ball might be too large; my suspicion is that it's the right critter, though.  Only a slug could tell you for sure.

As mentioned before, I'll be really interested to see how it shoots for you!  Pictures will always be appreciated!

[Dai.S.Loe]

I'll concur with Tuolumne Lawman - The Rapine 535370 mould is a very good buy.  It is built to make 56-56 RNFP rounds, which probably is what you should be shooting.  Have you slugged the bore?

If you get the Rapine, be sure to cast them a little on the hard side - perhaps a 10 on the hardness scale.  Since it is a heeled bullet, really soft casts don't survive handling very well - the ball will begin to rotate and pull out of the case.  With that beautiful-sounding Ballard, it probably won't matter as much. If you weren't in NZ, I'd send you a few to play with.

I've had very good luck with the Buffalo Arms 56-56 cases made from Starline 50-70 cases too (aside from some minor extraction issues).  4D-Die also makes a nice full-length die set. The starline 56-50 brass is really nice, but the rim is a little small for originals (not sure why they did that) - hence if it's an original, Buffalo Arms is your best source for cener-fire brass; Dixie for the rim-fire brass (then you need .22 blanks to act as primers).

My only concern is that 56-52 came out late in, or after the war, and the Rapine .535 ball might be too large; my suspicion is that it's the right critter, though.  Only a slug could tell you for sure.

As mentioned before, I'll be really interested to see how it shoots for you!  Pictures will always be appreciated!

Slugging the bore this week. I have been cleaning out 60 years worth of dirt and light rust. Using a phosphor bronze brush and lots of Balistol.

When I got the carbine I absolutely soaked the whole thing with Balistol.  So much crap came out of the block.

Yesterday I stripped the whole thing down and cleaned it up. Nothing abrasive but I got rid of a lot of years of accumulated crud. Old dried up oil etc.

The bore whilst not perfect is definitely shootable. I can see the rifling from breech to muzzle. There are dark spotsin scattered places but the balistol seems to be getting rid of them.

This carbine is in rimfire. talkling to a machinist with regards to turning out some brass that will seat the 6mm blank from a starting pistol. I know Dixie make this but at $27US for 6 pieces This wopuld work out to be about $40 NZ plus shipping. I doubt very much if I would see much change from $10 each piece.

The machinist thinks he can turn then out for me for a lot less than that, especially if I supply the brass stock.

Trying to find a copy of Frank De Haas' book "Single Shot Rifles and their Actions". I have been told that he has a detailed decription on how to convert to centre fire.

When I stripped the action down I found that the breech block was in two pieces. As I have access to a milling machine it may be possible to re engineer a copy for sentre fire. The hammer also.

Pictures are comming


Just as an aside.

the serial number on the side of the receiver is 1288

when I stripped the carbine I found the falling block was stamped with the number 15

taking of the fore wood and stamped inside that was the number 15

under side of the barrel is stamped 15 , but in the groove for the extractor is the number 1287

on the ectractor itself there is stamped the number 15

Very strange this recurring number.  It would be nice to think that this was the original serial number and that the number 1288 was an over stamp.

[Old Top]

Dai,

I believe the 15 that you are finding is an assembly number as these guns were mass produced but hand fit they used a number to make sure the part they fit went into the rifle they were fitting it to.

Old Top