Gunleather Question

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy folks,

I need HELP!!  I have poured over Packing Iron & Peacemakers trying to document a gun belt without cartridge loops.  Y'all know that my persona is a medical doctor and sometimes gambler.  Certainly, as a doctor, I would cary a revolver at times for my safety, but I would no be looking for a fight.  I don't think that a towns person would feel the need to have cartridge loops on his belt with his holster.

There are, of course, pictures of men with C&B revolvers and no loops on their belts, but no clear pictures of men in the 1875-80 era without them.  Can anyone point me toward a picture?

For holsters, I have a Califonia style holster, aka Slim jim, and a single loop "Mexican" style holster.  Both of these can be documented to the mid 1870's and later.

One possible picture is on page 225 of the Peacemakers, the center photo titles Studio shot of a teenage cowboy.  He is wearing shotgun chaps and his gun belt has no loops showing.  With it being a studio picture, I don't feel safe using it for documentation.

Thanks!

[French Jack]

Dr. Bob:  You may have a bit of work on your hand.  By the mid-1870's, gun belts commercialy made and sold with shell loops or 'thimbles' were very common.  Photographic evidence is beginning to get scarce for the use of a plain belt.  I will see what I can find in my reference books for the time period you are asking about.  I know that everyone did not use a belt with shell loops, getting a picture may be more difficult, like Del and his pregnant lady ( which I happen to have a photo of ).......In fact, most persons that did not wear a shell belt and holster simply carried a concealed revolver or derringer; the dread "Pocket Pistol"......  ;P

[James Hunt]

Dr. Bob: Interesting problem. I have always found your persona of a frontier MD fascinating. Did you ever, consider carrying your primary defensive firearm in your MD bag? If an MD carried a large frame revolver into the country on a house call I could see him throwing into his bag as almost an after thought, with a few cartridges in his pocket. I always thought it would be pretty cool to see you step to the line with your bag, pull the pistol out of the it, and engage your antagonists. The thought of your pistol getting hung up on your stethoscope would add some reality and give me a chance to "outdraw" you for that stage.

Absolute no help, but an interesting concept - don't even know if it would be NCOWS legal to carry it in this manner.

[Books OToole]

A while back I read Happy as a Big Sunflower, written by a young Swede in Nebraska in the late 1870s.  On three different occasions he mentions cartridge belts.  Judging by the context used, they were not that common in the late '70s.  The only people wearing them were professional gun toters. (One of the Pros was Boone May. One of the others was a Pike's Peak guide carrying only a rifle.)

At the turn of the century, Richard Harding Davis reccommended carrying a revolver with six rounds.  His reasoning being, "If you haven't hit the other guy in six, chances are he has hit you, and you won't need to reload." [From, Notes of a War Correspondent.]

That would be left handed documentaion for Dr. Bob.  But we should be able to do better.

Books

[Pawnee Bill]

 Some thing that might help you finding documentation is .
Back in the day the tipe of belt you seek were not called gun belts but were often refered to as California style or Firemans belts.
Hope that helps a might.
Cheers
Pawnee Bill

[Delmonico]

I'll keep my eyes open as I do my looking for this and that.  I am sure there is some out there some where, probblay right in front of our nose, but since photographers didn't often "shoot folks in the back."  they might be a bit hard to find.   Since there isn't really a problem dropping your Model P in the same rig you carried yor 51 Navy in, you know it happened.

Don't worry, I had about 50 pictures on hand of the 'expecting mothers" all found in one fell swoop before I ever posted on that.  Having only ever seen one before that was what inspired me.

[Pawnee Bill]

Here is a Photo of two fellas wearing no loop belts with one wearing belt with loops
Cheers
Pawnee Bill

Title      Men with guns
Call Number     Z-2469

Summary      Studio portrait of three men, all wear holstered guns and cowboy hats. One man has a watch chain and wears a buttoned bib front shirt. The second man has a long beard and a waxed moustache, he also wears a bib front shirt and an ammunition belt with bullets. The third man has muttonchop whiskers and wears a striped shirt with a short necktie.
Date      [between 1864 and 1880?]
Denver Public Library
http://denverlibrary.org/whg/foto.html

[Pawnee Bill]

No loops on this one
Title      Jake Border from Clark's Photographic Studio, North Main Street, Gunnison, Colo.
Call Number     X-9275

Summary      Standing studio portrait of Jake Border, Gunnison, Colorado; shows him in front of a painted landscape background in leather caps, felt hat and bandana with a hunting knife, gun in holster, and holding the barrel of rifle, butt end on the grassy floor.
Date      [between 1884 and 1885].




Fella on right no loops

Title      Sopris, John Bianchi
Call Number     CHS.X4312

Summary      A man identified as John Bianchi and a group of unidentified men pose near a store entrance in the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company coal camp of Sopris (Las Animas County), Colorado. John Bianchi stands with his hand on his hip and holds a pistol. The other men hold rifles, a shot gun, and stand on the front porch of the commercial building. Signs painted on the windows read: "Mrs. John Bianchi, General Store, Dry Goods, Notions, Fine Wine, Liquor, Cigars."
Date      [between 1893 and 1915?]

[St. George]

You 'could' carry your weapon holstered on a plain belt, using a pouch for the loose cartridges -but it wouldn't be a very common method by that time.

The cartridge belt had firmly taken over and was available commercially pretty much everywhere dry goods and hardware were sold.

As a Frontier Physician - you have your Gladstone bag and I'd allow that 'that' was the most common method for a Doctor to cart around his full-sized revolver.

On the other hand - that period was sort of the 'Dawn of the Pocket Pistol' and you'd be seeing all manner of good small-framed revolvers hitting the marketplace at a rapid rate - and you'd be more or less 'dressed' for them - with a coat and vest a part of your daily 'uniform' and offering ready concealment.

The late 1880's would see shoulder holsters gain in popularity - for all revolver frame sizes - and there'd be the 'pouch' style and 'half-breed' spring clip that you could choose from.

I have an El Paso Saddlery shoulder holster as made for John Wesley Hardin in the 1890's - and I'll give it this - it'll surely hide a Colt SAA - but any sort of speed is out of the question, as it positions directly under the armpit, with no forward cant - ala' the so-called 'Huckleberry Rig, so the gun's removed slowly.

If you want convenience - a 'Half-Breed' is far better, and Irish Dave just made a beauty for one of his Smith & Wessons.

Of course - you could carry both - using a pocket revolver on the person and your Gladstone bag for something larger.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[44caliberkid]

Regardless of the photographic evidence, I'm sure many people carried loopless belts.  Military, for one example.  I can't recall there ever being a military issue belt with ammo loops (I'm talkin' leather and handgun cartridges) even to the present day.  Military belts have always used ammo/ magazine pouches (slide on).  So if your Doc is a war vet, I'd say you are covered.

[Delmonico]

I do have one question here, are you looking for a way to carry your gun when out in the public doing your personna or are you figuring out how to carry it when at the line shooting in an event?

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy Delmonico,

Both!  I want it all!   My desire is to have a PC belt & holster for the range.  Mostly, I think that the doctor would not be packing in town, where he would be known and not expecting trouble.  But while traveling I would want ready access to my revolver if the need presented itself.

Thanks to all who have responded.  I really appreciate it!!

[Delmonico]

Ya most likely won't need it travelin' folks had enough sense not to shoot the only doctor for 100 miles.

[Will Ketchum]

Ya most likely won't need it travelin' folks had enough sense not to shoot the only doctor for 100 miles.

Unless of course you failed to save the brother of the brother of the Outlaw leader who kidnapped you to operate on him ....I think I saw that on Gunsmoke once

Will Ketchum

[Delmonico]

Since most doctors drove a buggy, the Winchester would be easy to keep in reach, a sidearm while drivin' a buggy would be as bad or worse than one while drivin' a pickup.  Side arms are more suitable to a horse or 4-wheeler.

[Grizzle Bear]

Dr. Bob:

A military holster, belt and cap/ammo pouch might fill the bill, and give you a little "background" as well.

Grizzle Bear

[Books OToole]

Being familiar with Dr. Bob's "Originals" Biography I think Griz is on the right track.

Dr. Bob served in the U.S. Army as a surgeon in the Mexican-American War.  He spent the '60s travelling abroad to avoid the hostilities in the states, having good friends on both sides of the conflict.

It is my suggestion that he uses his army staff officers belt from the '40s.

or

A plain waist belt like the one pictured on page 96 of Packing Iron. [I don't know how we missed that one.]

Books

[St. George]

Interesting thought - except for the fact that a Contract Surgeon from the aforementioned Mexican War period would be wearing a Green sash - and 'not' a Model 1851 Belt and Belt Plate.

That war was over before the adoption of that article of uniform.

Contract Surgeons - like Chaplains - were not officially armed.

A plain, civilian flap holster would be something suitable to represent that time - worn on a simple belt with a frame buckle.

All of this does nothing for competition, though - as the flap can be cumbersome - though a civilian's holster wouldn't necessarily be as 'stoutly-made' as that of a soldier's.

Good Luck.

Scouts Out!

[Frenchie]

Doc, how about this?

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_98_526&products_id=4177&osCsid=d0f7d2bd6af61ba7e92f9ebeb55040d8

[Delmonico]

You could get two of the small ones and buckle em together.   Course I would too.  If you decide to go that route Dr. Bob, send me a PM, I may have one if you want.