Clothing Question re: Authenticity

[Sundown Storm]

Hello,
I am curious if blue jeans are an authentic piece of late 19th century clothing. Meaning, I suppose, could one wear them to a CAS match without being snickered at?
If not, what sort of rough-wear work trousers were there then?

[St. George]

You'll find more on this subject in the archives - both here and on the NCOWS Forum.

Here's a short compilation that should help.

A pair of button-fly Levi 501's - after the trouser loops and left rear pocket have been removed and suspender buttons installed are period-correct for the era.

'Wranglers' aren't, since they came about after the turn of the century.

As to other materials - you'd most certainly have cotton.

'Nankee' trousers - a yellow-brown type of cotton cloth - would be common and about the time of the California Gold Rush - Levi Strauss was making stout trousers from tent cloth.

They'd eventually become known as 'Levi's pants' by the miners - later to be known as 'Levi's'.
He adopted the Indigo Blue as a hallmark to identify his product.
The copper rivets, Orange thread, oilcloth identifying ticket and leather label were in use and patented or copyrighted up until about 1908.

Anyone cowboying would've sought out the toughest pants he could find for the work ahead - and Levi's filled the bill - as did the various tailor-made stuff.

Wool and wool-blends were as common as cotton - plain and in varying patterns - both dark and light - and I've seen the wildest plaids you can imagine in period photographs and daguerreotypes.

Must not've been many available mirrors...

Remember - over time - aging and fading happens in photographs - and that doesn't  properly show 'true' colors.

WAH does a fine representation of available trousers - as does COWS and I'm sure - others.

One other thing - at the time - pretty much all clothing was made-to-measure - and though the 'style' was similar - fit varied. 

There was no crease in the trouser leg - a crease indicating that you bought your goods over the counter and the 'proof' was the folded crease line.

Though 'belts' have been around - 'trouser' belts haven't, since there were no trouser loops.

They're essentially a turn of the century invention.

Braces, galluses, or suspenders - all were used during the time - as were the high-waisted trousers.

Suspenders were more than common - but not all men wore them.

The small 'Ivy League' adjustment belt at the back of the high-waisted trousers was often snugged-up tight - and preferred by those who didn't like suspenders.

And 'showing' a pair of suspenders was akin to going in public with your undershirt on and without a shirt - it wasn't approved of and indicated a lack of manners.

Remember - we're talking the Victorian Era, here - and folks were 'far' more 'proper' than today.

They were effectively 'hidden' - both from view and from entanglement - by vests and coats - and 'all' men wore those as working dress.

If you didn't like wearing a pair - for reasons best known to yourself - then the adjustment belt was available at the rear and could be tightened as needed.

Many men did this - using friction to hold their pants in place.

Some would wear a sash - but that was generally a Southwestern affectation - drawing from the more colorful styles of the Mexican Vaqueros.

The sewn trouser loop wouldn't become a 'staple' of men's furnishings for many years - despite what's seen in the 'John Ford Reference Library'...

I 'do' like this quote from the Dodge City Live Stock Journal:

"A fashion item says that leather belts are in favor.
They were in favor here at one time.
Perhaps there was a difference in them.
Ours were studded with cartridges, and were very popular..."

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Sundown Storm]

My thanks, St. George;
I'm just learning how to use the archive search feature.
You've saved my bacon, as it were.
I appreciate the help.

Vaya, Amigo

[St. George]

De nada.

If I can help - drop a line.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Pawnee Bill]

Hello,
I am curious if blue jeans are an authentic piece of late 19th century clothing. Meaning, I suppose, could one wear them to a CAS match without being snickered at?
If not, what sort of rough-wear work trousers were there then?

Just as a side note in the 19th century what they called Jeans were made out of a wool cotton blend that had a distint diagonal twill .
It is still made today and is mostly used for Civil War uniforms.
Cheers
Pawnee Bill
http://www.crchilds.com/

[Sundown Storm]

Thank you, Bill.
Unfortunately, I'm not much of a tailor, and those listed as tailors hereabouts, are just alteration places. I'll have to stick to 501's modified unless I can find some made by a sutler, et al.

One other question I have though, is, where can I find some of the rivet buttons that Levis are contructed with? I'd imagine that they'd be harder wearing and longer lasting than regular buttons for suspenders.

[Pawnee Bill]

One other question I have though, is, where can I find some of the rivet buttons that Levis are contructed with? I'd imagine that they'd be harder wearing and longer lasting than regular buttons for suspenders.

I don't recommend it as if they pull out the ruin the pants, remember the thred and fasteners that hold something togeather should always be weaker than the base material if the thread fails it is easy to repair if the base fails its much harder and usually causes other damage to boot.
I have never had the buttons in 501's fail but I have owned many sutlers pants with the compressed type buttons and they all fail sooner than later.
Cheers
Pawnee Bill

[Sundown Storm]

Thank you again, Bill. I appreciate it.

[St. George]

You have two choices for attaching your suspenders - sewn-on buttons - or riveted.

Both can be purchased at any good fabric store, and in both cases, they're easy to install.

If you're modifying a pair of Levi's 501's - start with a brand-new, unwashed pair.

Carefully remove belt loops and the left rear pocket - install your suspender attachment as desired - then wash.

Doing it this way keeps the tell-tale 'patch' from happening if you'd've done it to a used pair.

The trousers of the period were high-waisted.

See what you might find at the thrift store in the way of dress or tuxedo pants - and drop by an 'old' dry cleaners to see if such things have been left unclaimed.

You might be surprised at what you find.

As to common 'tailors' - you're right, for the most part - but if you 'really' want something made or altered 'for you' -  look to someone who works out of her house.
Patterns are available for pretty much everything - including drawers - so you're set.

Or - you could just break down and buy a well-thought-out outfit of a pair of trousers and two shirts from someplace like 'The Fort' in Lincoln, Nebraska - toll-free at - 1-877-907-3678 - X199 - ask for Terry or Glen.

Good Luck.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Pawnee Bill]

Thank you again, Bill. I appreciate it.

Ya know if you need to start with a brand new pair of 501's they cost any where from $36-$45 depending on where you get them.
River juntion has their canvas pants on sale .
I bought a pair of these a EOT4 and they are still in service.
Cheers
Pawnee Bill
http://www.riverjunction.com/showcase/fallspecial/specialpage_Trouser.html

[Sundown Storm]

Ah, if only they'd fit, Bill.
I'm what you may call... fat...
I'd need at least a 48 waist (and that's after having lost 100 lbs)
Wild West Mercantile carries pants like that in my size, and that price range, so I'll probably go with them, though I appreciate the link.
Interesting side note: I used to work at a liquor store where we were required to wear 'pirate' garb, and the shirts seem to translate well into the old west style. They're from House of Dra, though they're a might expensive http://houseofdra.com I think is the link. The only think I'm not too up on them is the collar, it's sort of oddly-done, though it makes for a nice 'frontier' look.

On the subject of Buscadero holsters, I understand that they are pure hollywood fantasy, but, it's often mentioned with a 'drop-loop' holster, which I can't find anything about, what's a drop-loop holster?

[Pawnee Bill]

On the subject of Buscadero holsters, I understand that they are pure hollywood fantasy, but, it's often mentioned with a 'drop-loop' holster, which I can't find anything about, what's a drop-loop holster?

This is the only historical image that I know of that shows the so called drop loop holster.
Cheers
Pawnee Bill

[St. George]

The Buscadero Rig's been discussed in some depth - and it's in the archives of both the 'Historical Society Forum' and the 'NCOWS Forum'.

In short - the 'drop-loop' and the 'buscadero' are one and the same.

The style looked 'good' for Silver Screen 'cowboys' - all carved and studded and photogenic as hell - but that was a design that came about  way past the turn of the century.

The gun rig of the time was a cartridge belt that threaded under the holster that most often used a 'Mexican Loop'.

As to your 'Pirate Shirt' - leaving any 'Seinfeld' references to one side - that 'style' is more closely associated with its own time period - and through the Colonial time frame.

If 'homespun' looking - it can pass for pre-Civil War - but beyond that's a stretch - though the billowing sleeves were seen in the Fur Trapper era, and sometimes down in the Southwest.

However - given your previous size - there should be more than enough fabric to allow a decent seamstress to 'build' you a good shirt of the Frontier era.

A word of advice that you'll see reiterated when doing something 'historically-accurate'.

Look at the Impression you wish to portray and  decide how you'd dress in accordance with the time - given your station in life.

Then - buy accordingly and buy the best quality you can afford, since you'll get the best service from it.

SASS and GAF allow for the Hollywood look, while NCOWS doesn't - however - properly outfitted for NCOWS will more than suffice for all C&WAS outfits.

There's one of my 'Notes' that addresses the creation of your Impression, and that may prove helpful.

Hope it does.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Major 2]

here you go

http://plainlydressed.bravepages.com/mensclothinghatsfile.html

mens Sizes 36-50+  in several fabrics & colors in denim ,corduroy etc.

[Delmonico]

One note, do not order Frontier Pants the size of your jeans, they fit higher up and few of us are the same size just below the belly button where these fit.  Frontier Classics makes the pants up to 54 waist.  I sell them for $34.98 plus shipping.    As St. George said, Terry and I are always glad to help and not just because we do it for a living.

Feel free to give either of us a call, we'll take as long as needed to make sure you get what you need.

Delmonico aka Glen Carman

The Fort Old West Shop
Lincoln Nebraska

1-877-907-3678 - X199

[Sundown Storm]

On the subject of the 'pirate' shirt - I had to take a laugh at the mention of the Seinfeld episode; it's not that bad, nor 'poofy'. Major, I thank ya for the link to the plainly dressed site. My impression is to be a working-cowboy type, and I'd like to be able to show that side of it, and the 'Sundy best' types. I'll be honest, I dress like this pretty much all the time, now. I find it a might more comfortable, in more ways than one, than a t-shirt and wranglers. I'm pretty much 're-booting' my wardrobe, and will be spending quite a bit on setting myself up.
NCOWS is a little intimidating, to say the least
Though, I'd love to join them, I just need to work on my stuff.

Thanks for the help, Gentlemen, I definitely appreciate it. Delmonico, I'll be in touch when I figure out exactly what it is that I'm looking for; I like to give my business to someone I can talk to, rather than simply an online catalog, that's for certain.

[Marauder]

For most folks, the buscadero rigs have the holster sorta built into the belt. 

The buscadero belt is made special with a wider portion (or taller) that has a hole cut into that portion of the belt.  The holster loops through this hole in the belt.

Look here for two examples. 
http://www.kirkpatrickleather.com/index_ow.htm
On the right side of your screen (discount holsters) you will see a classic buscadero rig.
One the left is a normal loop holster. 
On a drop loop rig, you use a regular belt but the loop of the holster is made longer so that the holster rides lower, often as low as a buscadero rigs would ride.

[St. George]

Don't let the authenticity requirements of NCOWS hold you back at all.

Contrary to myth and supposition - there are no 'stitch police' - just helpful folks who replicate the 'authentic' side of the Frontier era and are interested in the history and research - as well as the shooting.

They're pretty easy - once you've decided on the Impression - and the shooting class - 'Working Cowboy' is tailor-made for you.

Get some good high-waisted trousers that fit comfortably.

A pair of shirts - one 'band collar' - one pullover one with some 'color' - a good hat and a comfortable vest will cover much of your needs.

'Good' boots go without saying - and 'The Fort' - has some great ones that will fit anyone with larger calves.
Wear 'em with trousers tucked - and you're on the range - with trousers over the 'shaft' - you're set for 'in town'.

Later - for 'goin' inta town' - a coat of some variety will add to your more 'respectable' look - as will a 'better' vest to give you some 'substance'.

One thing about NCOWS members - those folks 'want' to help you find what you're looking for and they have good ideas to share.

Don't pay any attention to the squabbles - just look for 'content' and you'll find out all sorts of stuff.

Any 'odd' questions - send me a PM.

Arrrgh...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Sundown Storm]

One question that i have (because I like the way that they look) is the 'bib-front' shirt correct? in any color? I'm thinking of the Frontier Classics 'Longview Bib Shirt', in specific

[Delmonico]

Yes, many photo's show bib shirts in them, even plaids.