cross body draw

[geo]

was reading a book on the old west shootists (?), shooters...the preferred pistol carry seemed to be on the opposite side of the body to one's strong hand with the pistol reversed - a cross body draw. i puzzled about this and wondered how effective this would be in pistol competitions. if one is standing in a weaver stance or modified weaver stance would using a cross body draw be faster in bringing the pistol out of the holster and into target alignment? any thoughts? thanks in advance. geo.

[Major 2]

Many do use the cross draw in CAS... I prefer it myself.
But one must keep the 170 rule in mind and do the leg forward position , to keep from being disqualified,  for sweeping the peanut gallery.
I suppose the Weaver stance (two handed) might require to readjust your balance ... thus causing the shooter to do the so called  "Cross draw dance". This extra move might slow down the shooter to point on target.
The cross draw, one-handed might have the quicker move.



Historically,
it is the most comfortable and handiest way to carry a handgun ( especially longer barreled )  on horseback.

[RRio]

One has to learn the "Cross Draw Two Step". 

[geo]

o.k. i 'fess up...what's the "cross draw two step?" is it if you thumb the hammer back too fast you don't put a bullet into your foot? gawd, this black powder stuff is so compicated...

[Major 2]

I wasn't clear ?

The cross draw dance or two step....

Step one ...you stand with your leg forward ( sideways to the target ) so your cross draw pistol is pointed more down range
as you draw, and raise to aim you (step two) step forward with the opposite leg , to pivot, now you are square on with your target , now you cock the piece.

[Arcey]

The only competition an old west gunfighter, if that's what we're talking about, was worried about was walking away from a gunfight the winner.  Their 'competition' could have been within arm's reach.  A cross draw arrangement could present a smaller target to their opponent while allowing an economy of motion in drawing and firing.

People to this day will stick a CW in a waist band in a cross draw fashion.  In close combat, it allows one to use the weak side shoulder to push an opponent off balance, the weak side hand to pull away the concealment and the strong hand to draw and discharge the firearm.  Though 'Hollyweird', check out the fight between Holliday 'n Ringo in Tombstone.  The downside is it presents the firearm to one's opponent early on in the altercation.  That too also well illustrated in Tombstone.

By SASS rules, and you have to look in three different places the last time I checked, the 170 is the rule.  If you can pull a pistol from a cross draw holster without doing some sort of dance and without breaking the plane, so be it.  I routinely draw mine with just a swivel of the hips, feet never move.  The 170 is never threatened so it's legal.

I did 'three butts back' for awhile but I wasn't comfortable with snatchin' a pistol from a weak side holster and transferrin' it to my strong hand.  I'd rather do a little twist and grab the thing from a cross draw with my strong hand.

They type of powder has nothing to do with it.  Don't try cock the thing until it's pointed downrange.

[Major 2]

"Hollyweird" , is right !
Though the "Tombstone" film is good and Ringo was part of the Cowboys, Doc Holliday did not face and kill him ....
I do like the style of fictitious face off though.

John Ringo , used his own gun, to commit suicide.

[Arcey]

I used the film as an example, Maj, not a fact.  The scenes do well illustrate the crossdraw technique as well as the necessity of weapon retention in the scene where Earp pulls a criminal's gun from his waist band and bonks him in the head with it.

And, Ringo's boots? I got 'em!  I can claim that, there weren't any witnesses.

HA!!!

[Major 2]

indeed Arcey... thats why I used your "Hollyweird"

I know the Gun Coach that advised Kilmer & Biehn , Thell Reed, that scene was his setup.

to coin a phrase " Hollywood will never allow history to get in the way of a good story line "

[DJ]

Echoing Arcey's post, I don't think they had the same safety concerns in the Old West that we have now.  There wasn't a 170 rule in those days.  Although I guess Wild Bill Hickock did get a Match DQ for shooting his own deputy.  I guess in those days, the safety rules only prohibited actually shooting a bystander, not just sweeping him with your muzzle.

I've done the crossdraw thing, but don't anymore.  I see lots and lots of people violate the 170 rule at the local matches I go to.  For the most part, they follow something like a 180 rule, drawing with the barrel about parallel to the firing line.  I'd rather not have to worry about such slight angles while I'm trying to shoot on the clock.

[El Mac]

John Ringo , used his own gun, to commit suicide.

I do believe there is some controversy still remaining on that notion...

[RRio]

I've done the crossdraw thing, but don't anymore.  I see lots and lots of people violate the 170 rule at the local matches I go to.  For the most part, they follow something like a 180 rule, drawing with the barrel about parallel to the firing line.  I'd rather not have to worry about such slight angles while I'm trying to shoot on the clock.

I seen alot of non-called violations of that myself. Seen quite a few on the EOT DVDs, alone.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I feel compelled to comment at this time about the 'cross draw dance', as practiced in Cowboy Action Shooting. The term 'dance' is only generic. There is no mention in any SASS rulebook of anything having to do with specifics of how to pull a pistol from a cross draw holster without breaking the 170 degree rule. Most specifically, there is no mention anywhere of footwork, or body postition, or any of the other topics that have been mentioned here.

The only specific reference to pulling or holstering a pistol from a crossdraw holster in the Shooter's Handbook, item 21 under Safety pracitices is:

21. Extreme care must be exercised when drawing a revolver from a cross-draw or shoulder
holster or returning the revolver to leather. The user must "twist" their body, if necessary, to
ensure the muzzle never breaks the 170-degree safety rule during the process. Failure to
ensure the muzzle is always down range is grounds for an immediate stage disqualification.
A second infraction during the same match is grounds for match disqualification. (Note: The
170-degree safety rule means the muzzle of the firearm must always be straight down range
+/- 85 degrees in any direction. If a competitor "comes close" to breaking the 180-degree
safety plane, the 170-degree safety rule has been violated, and the competitor is at fault.)

Notice it says: The user must "twist" their body, if necessary.

Nowhere is anything mentioned about footwork, or any other specifics of how to draw a pistol from a cross draw holster, other than possibly twisting the body, IF NECESSARY. If you can draw and holster from a cross draw with out breaking the 170 simply by twisting your body, or by how you postion yourself, you have met the letter of the definition. End of story.

Clubs that insist on seeing foot movement with a cross draw holster, and ROs that insist on it, are making up their own rules. While it is perfectly acceptable for a club to specify local rules, and they must be obeyed while shooting at that club, they are local rules, not official SASS rules. ROs who watch crossdraw shooters with an eagle eye, treating them as accidents waiting to happen, should go back and read the RO 1 manual, particularly the sections about not beeing a hard ass, and should watch all shooters with equal vigilance, not just cross draw shooters.

Cross draw shooters need to also be aware of their muzzle direction at the loading and unloading tables too, just like any other shooter, and must take care not to sweep anyone while at the loading and unloading tables.

[The Avocado Kid]

Here in AZ where I live-back in the day-a-lot of people were either bush-wacked or shot in the back and when the stage coach was stopped and robbed they were on foot not on horse back. Most of what we see about the "old west" comes from Hollywood remember,John Ford said if given the choice between myth and history(on film) I would choose myth. Dusty.

[Will Dearborn]

I like a cross-draw myself.  But I don't step forward with one foot and then the other.  I reach for the gun, step forward with my left weak-side foot, and then step back with the same foot after the gun clears leather and is pointed down-range.  TO holster... I step forward with the weak-foot again, hand the pistol off to my weak hand and holster it while drawing my strong-side.  I square my body up to the targets as I bring the new gun into position.

*shrug*

Long days and pleasant nights,
Will