Input request. 44-77 BN

Started by Dai.S.Loe, July 05, 2006, 04:59:59 PM

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Dai.S.Loe

I have asked this question on other boards but I thought it would be good to post it here also. I have learnt so much from all the questions I have asked here that once again I felt it necessary to do so again.


In the next 2 weeks my latest project, a rebuild of a Remington RB, will be complete. I am now looking forward to my next project. This is also going to be a single shot rifle but the difference the level of build that I hope to achieve.

To date I have;

rechambered a 94 AE from 30-30 to 38-55

rebuilt a Swedish RB action with barrel, wood, sights etc.

These have both been interesting and have piqued my interest in attempting a project with more depth to it.

What I have decided so far is that it will be a single shot long range rifle.

It will be chambered for the 44-77 BN.

It will be a BP rifle

The rest is still to be decided.

I am even not sure what action to use though I am very heavily leaning towards a Ballard action as I find the lines of this maker to please my eye greatly.

SO what do I want.

I want advice, information, tips, hints stories, etc.

Mainly about the calibre 44-77 BN.

It is not very common over here but I am intrigued by it. I have never reloaded a bottle neck BP round so any advice would be appreciated.

Availability of cases, moulds, dies and all other reloading gear. Should I go paper patched?

Lars, DD, and all you BP shooters please avail me of your collective wisdom.

All help, advice, etc. gratefully accepted.


Dai
The "Darkside" means never having to see the targets you miss.

Fox Creek Kid

See my post in the Dark Side.

Sir Charles deMouton-Black

Dai;  You sure are ambitious.  I read the replies under Darksiders, and they agree with everything I've read.  Mike Venturino's books are where to go.  Apparently bottle necked cases  are finicky to load, and straight cases replaced them very quickly.

Have you tried the BPCR sight?  Single Shot Exchange had an article years ago on the .44-90.  Maybe they have some info.

I recall reading, somewhere, that a 7th Cav. sergeant had a .44-77 at the Greasy Grass
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."

Dai.S.Loe

Sir Charles,

Yes I know I am ambitious but unless one tilts at the occasional windmill, how does one learn their limits?

Rifle shooting has always been my first love, long range my second. CAS has come along an introduced me to Black Powder.

When I was only 13 my dad took me to the local rifle range and introduced me to the shooters there. He told them that his son wanted to learn to shoot and would they teach me. That day after learning about safety, spending a long time in the butts marking and patching, I was allowed to fire my first rifle. A .303 SMLE. I still remeber to this day, 37 years later, the feeling of acomplishment when I actually hit the target at 500 yards.

Sites like this have introduced me to the old time rifles and the more I read the more I want to try.

I wish I could afford an original but I dont think I ever will so I will have to build as close a copy as I possibly can.

To top it off I have always been somewhat of a "flash Harry" so it is well within my nature to want to have something different. There is too much mediocrity in the world. Too many people attempting to tell me what I cant and can do. If I do get to build this rifle and I start shooting it at competitions it will be my little rebellion.


I am going out this weekend to get a copy of Mike Venterino's book on buffalo guns. Have the ones on sixguns and lever guns. Love them. Read them so much that they are falling apart.

I dare to dream and in doing so I feel as though I am at 50 years of age, still a vibrant person.

ENough of the preaching and pontificating.

I will complete this project. I will shoot it and I will again acomplish something that stretches my imagnation and increases my knowledge.

Dai.

The "Darkside" means never having to see the targets you miss.

Sir Charles deMouton-Black

Dai;  I have a Marini-Henry action that needs a new barrel.  My best offer is from a UK trained armourer to put a .35 WCF pipe on it.  I saw a thread on Graybeard...etc, about a "Whatcheer" target rifle. I'll have to look at that one.  I admire your spirit.  My problem is transferring "follow through" from the range to the rest of my life!
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."

Dai.S.Loe

Quote from: Sir Charles deMoutonBlack on July 06, 2006, 06:43:21 PM
Dai;  I have a Marini-Henry action that needs a new barrel.  My best offer is from a UK trained armourer to put a .35 WCF pipe on it.  I saw a thread on Graybeard...etc, about a "Whatcheer" target rifle. I'll have to look at that one.  I admire your spirit.  My problem is transferring "follow through" from the range to the rest of my life!

Sir Charles,

Check out the British antique gun dealers websites. The Martini Henry in the 577/450 calibre is considered obsolete and therefore no licence to purchase them needed (or export permit). They are getting a lot of them in from the Indian sub continent and they are in very good condition. You could probably get parts from them. I dont know what restrictions your government places upon importation of obsolete parts. Worth a look.

I have the same problem with following through but since comming bact to NZ from the UK I have only myself to answer too. My wife and kids remained over there. For the past 4 years I have been able to do a few of the things I have wanted to try. My only limiting factor is cash. Sending NZ money to the UK doesnt go very far.

Both my other conversion and rebuild have been done on a tight budget. The next one will be done more with an eye to making something beautiful and functional as opposed to just functional. I have become involved with a young lady over the last year who is extremely supportive of my hobby. She realises that it is something that I am passionate about and encourages me to do my best. Very nice feeling.

Last night I had an accident in my home which has resulted in quite a severe gash to the palm of my left hand. I wont be shooting pistols from that one for a month or so. So I will have time at home to sit down now and really start to plan the new rifle. I trained as a design engineer and  am used to using such tools as project management software and CAD progs. Once I have gathered as much information as possible I will input it to these progs and see where it goes from there.

Any way I ramble on as I tend to do.

it is really good to have someone to discuss things with so please keep in touch.

Dai
The "Darkside" means never having to see the targets you miss.

TAkaho kid

Dai,

What are your plans for the Ballard action? (I love the Ballard action by the way) There are castings available (Rodney Storie). I would also contact Bill and Louise Northrop at Ballard Rifle & Cartridge Co. You may be able to talk them into selling just an action or know where you might find one.

Best of luck. Please keep us posted.

Dai.S.Loe

Quote from: TAkaho kid on July 06, 2006, 09:41:02 PM
Dai,

What are your plans for the Ballard action? (I love the Ballard action by the way) There are castings available (Rodney Storie). I would also contact Bill and Louise Northrop at Ballard Rifle & Cartridge Co. You may be able to talk them into selling just an action or know where you might find one.

Best of luck. Please keep us posted.

I was talking to a friend this weekend and mentioned that I was hoping to start a project using a Ballard action. I mentioned that there was some one in the US making castings to pattern but I have been having trouble contacting them.

My friend there upon asked me if I had to build a new action or would an original do. Apparently a very good friend of his has an original that was bought from new in the 1870's by his great grandfather and has been in the family ever since. From what my friend said it appears that the barrel is completely stuffed and the woodwork will need replacing. The action is covered in a light coating of rust. It has spent all its life as a working gun on a farm here in NZ, its been passed down through 4 generations of the owning family.

My mate is going to ask the owner if he would sell it to me. He is going to explain to him that I am an enthusiast and I will be rebuilding the whole rifle rather than restoring it. As it is now there is a very big likely hood of the piece being just left to completely rot away.

Needless to say I am really buzzed about this.

I dont care too much about the barrel as there are plenty of companies that make replacements. The wood work that is there can be used as a template. The action can be disassembled and cleaned. A good soaking in petrol should make cleaning up the metall parts easier.

Since I may be getting an original I feel that I should at least contemplate re barreling this action in an original caliber.

Suggestions please. I would want to shoot this at long range.

What were the Ballard calibers?

Dai.
The "Darkside" means never having to see the targets you miss.

Oregon Bill

Dai: I'm not certain that Ballard ever chambered the .44-77, but many consider it the first centerfire sporting cartridge offered in the U.S. Most authorities say Remington   developed it based on the .43 Spanish military cartridge it was making by the millions for its military rolling block clients, but Sharps also chambered the .44-77 in the late 1860s. It was the "quintessential buffalo round," according to Mike Venturino, along with the .50-70, in the early buffalo era.
For more about loading bottlenecks and the .44-77 in particular, check out the Shiloh Sharps forums. For more on the Rodney Storie Ballard castings, go to the ASSRA forums.

Pitspitr

Dai
Supposedly the .44-77 was the most popular chambering for the Sharps until the .45-70 came out.

When you say that the barrel is "stuffed" do you mean with dirt, mud dauber nests ect. or is that a NZ expression for "ruined"? If it's stuffed with dirt ect. don't automatically assume that the barrel is ruined. I have a friend who found a '74 sharps in a barn in the same condition. When they cleaned the barrel out they found some pitting near the muzzle but the rest of the bore was in surprizingly good shape. They shortened the barrel and today it is a very good shooting gun.
I remain, Your Ob'd Servant,
Jerry M. "Pitspitr" Davenport
(Bvt.)Brigadier General Commanding,
Grand Army of the Frontier
BC/IT, Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman, CC, SoM
NRA CRSO, RVWA IIT2; SASS ROI, ROII;
NRA Benefactor Life; AZSA Life; NCOWS Life

Sir Charles deMouton-Black

Dai;   Check in Cartridges of the World.  (A quick check indicates some promising choices.)  What is your rifle chambered for?

COTW, 3d Ed.;  Lists the following Ballard cartridges. (Case making suggestions are mine.)
.32 Ballard Extra Long (replacing rimfire rounds.)
.38      "           "         "               "            "               "
.38-50   an everlasting case.  forerunner of the .38-55.  (Make cases from .30-30)  Of course, the .32-40 and 38-55 were both Ballard developements, through Marlin to Winchester.
.40-65   (Not .40-65 Win)  also an "everlasting" case. Later altered to .40-63 & .40-70, same case different loads. (.45-90 case, 2.38")
.40-85 & .40 -90  (case similar to ,444, or 9.3X72R Sauer, but 2.94")
.44 Long, cf. (Equivalent to .44rf)
.44 Ballard extra long (Replaced the above, both lost out to the .44-40 Wcf as Ballard chamberings)
.44-75  (very rare)  (Case length 2.50 in.) (.45 basic for these last three)
.44-100   (also rare)  (Case length 2.81")
.45-100  A variation of the .44-100, with the mouth inside reamed for the larger bullet.
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."

Bull Schmitt

If you are thinking of building a rifle using an original Ballard action be sure you have one of the forged actions. Ballard made both cast and forged actions. From what I have read the cast actions are NOT recommended for anything much over a 22 RF. They can and will crack if used for heavy center fire cartridges.
Bvt Col Bull Schmitt
GAF Adjutant General
GAF Commander Department of the Atlantic
GAF Webmaster
SCORRS President & Webmaster
SASS #9535, SCORRS, GAF, NRA

Sir Charles deMouton-Black

Bull S*****t;    I have a copy of SINGLE SHOT ACTIONS, but not here.  I wasn't aware of the cast action problem, but did ask Dai for the original chambering.  Does that make a difference?  If it was in a larger caliber already, is it safe to assume that a large calibre replacement barrel would be OK?  (I can see the trap if it was originally chambered in one of those shorter central fire rounds, like the .32 Extra Long.)
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."

Bull Schmitt

Sir Charles,

I am not sure what calibers might have been originally used with cast actions. I have two Ballards with cast actions. One is in 32 Extra Long and the other at some time has been rebarrelled in 38-55. I am reluctant to shoot the 38-55.
Bvt Col Bull Schmitt
GAF Adjutant General
GAF Commander Department of the Atlantic
GAF Webmaster
SCORRS President & Webmaster
SASS #9535, SCORRS, GAF, NRA

Four-Eyed Buck

Don't shoot it, Bull. That 38-55 will bust that cast action in short order. The Ballard guys on the two Marlin boards I haunt definately don't reccommend the cast actions for anything over the old .32 short/long caliber..............Buck 8) ::) :o ;)
I might be slow, but I'm mostly accurate.....

Bull Schmitt

Howdy Four-Eyed,

It has been shot a few times but I have retired it. The 38-55 barrel on it is kind of interesting. It has a wooden ramrod and ramrod thimbles!!! I probably should pull that barrel and build a nice 22 match rifle on the cast action!!
Bvt Col Bull Schmitt
GAF Adjutant General
GAF Commander Department of the Atlantic
GAF Webmaster
SCORRS President & Webmaster
SASS #9535, SCORRS, GAF, NRA

Delmonico

Lined to 32 S&W Long would be really neat.
Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Sir Charles deMouton-Black

Dai;   How is your new carbine?  Have you sold the motorcycle to pay for it yet?

I saw your thread on the open range.  Boy is there a lot of info out there.
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."

Four-Eyed Buck

Bull, could some smith back in it's history cobined two guns to make one???? Is that barrel actually a Ballard barrel? Or after market? The ramrod/thimble setup was on the Pacific and Montana models in large calibers, IIRC.................Buck 8) ::) :o ;)
I might be slow, but I'm mostly accurate.....

Dai.S.Loe

Quote from: Sir Charles deMoutonBlack on August 16, 2006, 10:30:05 AM
Dai;   How is your new carbine?  Have you sold the motorcycle to pay for it yet?

I saw your thread on the open range.  Boy is there a lot of info out there.

Sold the bike.

Hopefully picking up the rifle on the 31st of this month on my way up to Kaikohe for the NZ North Island CAS Champs.

Apparently a dealer has gotten wind of this rifle and has put the word out that he will better any offer as he is determined that he is going to buy it. Hopefully the current owner has enough integrity to keep to our agreement but in these days money talks.


On a lighter note. The North Island champs are my first shoot since Feb. My partner Penny Cillin is attending as a spectator for the first time.

Last night we spent quite a number of hours at a theatrical company's costume storehouse. Penny hired 2 ballgowns and 3 costumes for the 3 days and 2 nights we will be attending the competition. It was amazing watching her face light up as she was planning  her costumes and finding just the correct ones.

This time I am taking the digital camera with me and we will get some shots of the Kiwi CAS partners to share with you on this board.

Penny even made me hire a full evening suit with proper tails, white waistcoat, white bow tie and top hat.

Should be fiun

Dai
The "Darkside" means never having to see the targets you miss.

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