"Battle Rifle" Demonstration at Muster 06

[Drydock]

Having inadvertently hijacked another thread, thought I should post this seperate.

I have recieved permission to demonstrate a "Battle Rifle" Class at the upcoming muster.  IE shooting the main match using Milspec weapons, with ammunition loaded to CAS spec.  Proposed specification are:

-Milspec weapons of the Victorian era, 1860-1901

-RIfles will be MAIN BATTLE RIFLES and CARBINES, utilizing CAS spec ammunition.  Lead bullets of weight no more than 405 grains, velocity less than 1400 FPS.  Examples would be: Krags, Spencers, Trapdoors, Sniders, Enfields, Mausers. Handguns would be milspec, or of demonstrated military use, related in period to the rifle used.  The rifle is the determing factor here.

-Lever action pistol caliber rifles are specificly excluded.  Rifles/carbines must be in a military configuration, military caliber.  Example:  the 1895 Winchester is allowed, if in carbine configuration, with a handguard, chambered in .30 US (.30-40 Krag)

-Lever action rifles with tubular under barrel magazines are not allowed, with specific exceptions.  The best one I can think of would be this:  You can use an M1876 Winchester, IF its a Handguard carbine, If it is .45-75 caliber, If you are dressed as a RCMP/NWMP.

-Dress must Attempt to be military, matching the weapon used.  Don't show up dressed for the Rough Riders carrying an 1898 Mauser.  Full or partial uniforms are fine, Scouts, field expediencey, and irregulars are recognized.

-Era single shots, ie trapdoors, Martini Henrys, Rolling blocks, are encouraged, loaded to spec, probably only required to engage half the rifle targets of the repeaters.  This will be worked out/adjusted as needed, as per NASCAR.

-As a technical limitation, No stripper clips allowed.

-Don't come to me about the Turks using 1866s at Plevna.  Know it, don't care, plenty other venues for those.  This is for Main Battle rifles.  Henrys and 66s were the submachine guns of their era.

This is still in its formative stage.  I will be shooting the Muster using an M1898 Krag Carbine, and an M1873 Trapdoor carbine.  If interested, Please e-mail or PM me with any suggestions.  This will be a demonstration only at this match, if successful, it could lead to a GAF exclusive Military class.  Do not ask to shoot it at this match, I have permission only for myself to shoot the main match as a demonstration, and to solicit input from the membership and observers.

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings!

That sounds like One Hell of a lot of FUN! I wish that I could be there to see it...! Have someone Take Photos to post!!

                              Be Well!

                                             M.T.Marfield
                                                7-3-06

[Gripmaker]

Drydock,  Thanks for the email about this posting. Had I looked a little bit before posting, I wouldn't have had to.  You may need to look at a more open class using battle rifles as some of our boys were known to have secured Mausers in Cuba and used them. Although not issue, it was done. This is true of other situations during this period as most military rifles of the world were also readily available to civilians and specially procured by foreign military, ie. Custer's used of English issue military revolvers after CW and possibly at LBH.  Don't intend to cause a stir but if we are going to be strictly period correct we may have some adjusting to do. Oh well, that's what makes historical reenacting so durned much fun.

[Drydock]

You'll notice I mentioned "Field expediancy"  for example, an American officer in Cuba might well pick up a "dropped" Mauser 93.  This was know to have happened, and is documented.  Fine by me, though I'd rather you fitted out as a Spanish trooper, or a cuban insurrecto.  As you have a Mauser 98, I'd say your best bet is as a Mexican revolutionary.  Viva Villa!

American senior officers were known for using non issue weapons.  Ya want to dress up like Custer and use a Bulldog, love to see it!  Go great with an Officers Model Trapdoor.  As long as you are using a Main Battle Rifle, the sidearm must be a reasonable accompaniement.

While I do leave the door open for such things, understand that this is not a low priced class, or for beginners to try, nor do i wish to "Maximize" participation.  Again, plenty other venues for this.  This is for we dedicated looneys who like to bring these old warhorses and their history to life.  But I am not, nor will be a stitch counter.

Really, what I want to see are regulars, using issue weapons.  Bluecoats with Krags/Trapdoors and SAAs.  Tommies with Sniders/Martini-Henrys/Enfields and Enfields/Webleys.  Spaniards with 93 Mausers and S&W Russians.  Maybe a Russian or two with his Nagants.  You get the idea . . .

Wouldn't ya love to see Rattlesnake Jack on the line with a Martini-Henry and a Webley?  I kin hear the bagpipes skirling in the backround . . .

[Grapeshot]

OK.  Tell me this Sgt Drydock.  Would one of the 1874 Sharps Military Rifles or Carbines, either in .50-70 or in .45-70 be acceptable?
  How about the 1866 Spencer Carbine as used by the 7th Cavalry prior to the Washita campaign? 
And of course, for our New York State Comrades, the Remington Rolling Block Rifle in .50-70 or the .50-45 model used by the US Marines in Korea in 1870?

[Drydock]

Yes, yes and yes.  Heck, the Spencer and the Remington are specificly mentioned above.

[Grapeshot]

Sorry!  Sometimes I can't see the forest for the trees.  If it had, teeth it would have bit me.

[Pitspitr]

-RIfles will be MAIN BATTLE RIFLES and CARBINES, utilizing CAS spec ammunition.  Lead bullets of weight no more than 350 grains, velocity less than 1400 FPS.  Examples would be: Krags, Spencers, Trapdoors, Sniders, Enfields, Mausers. Handguns would be milspec, or of demonstrated military use, related in period to the rifle used.  The rifle is the determing factor here.

Hi Sgt.
If I were to do this I'd really like to use the service load for my Springfields but it looks like I might have to get another mould. . Will the 405 or 500 gr. bullets really do that much damage to a steel target? (I plead ignorance as I'm use to using them mostly on paper or with blanks)

[Drydock]

I'm afraid the sheer inertia of those big bullets tends to dimple steel targets.  Also the 45s have a pretty high sectional density, one of the reasons that we can get away with that big 350 in the .56/.50.

I just load .45 colt bullets in mine.  At CAS distances they shoot fine.  I use the Lyman 454190 over a couple of .410 shotshell fiber wads, and 40 grains FFG

[Dr. Bob]

Sgt. Drydock,

If I use a Swiss Vetterle converted to center fire, I would need to have a Swiss uniform and revolver?  .41 Swiss has pistol ballistics. 

YMH&OS,

Capt. R. H. Dorian
Chief Topog 

[Drydock]

I suspect so, unless you can come up with some other outfit that used that rifle. 

[Major Matt Lewis]

Me, my Krag, and my Brandy New...Rough Rider Uniform.....I LIKE IT....Will this be the 2007 Muster?

[Drydock]

Should no problems arise during the 06 muster, then I will petition the Command Staff to implement this as a Standard GAF catagory at future musters. 

[US Scout]

Sgt Drydock,

Actually, I'm already considering the Battle Rifle Categoy at the 2006 Muster to be the trial run for a future GAF Muster category.  Once the results are in, we can examine any lessons learned and apply them. 

The GAF has long wanted to create a shooting category in which appropriate military long-arms could be used in a CAS/WAS style competition. We acknowledge that there are several possibilities as to how this may go (bolt-action (Krags, Mausers, Lees, Lee-Enfields, etc), single-shot (Sharps, Rolling Blocks, Trapdoors, Smiths, etc), Lever-action (Spencers) and the like vs the "cowboy" lever actions that most of us are forced to use now.

The real issues here are being able to download the ammunition to acceptable CAS/WAS limits so that they don't destroy the targets, and coming up with a good set of rules/guidelines for actually shooting these rifles in competion.

As pointed out in the thread, I would prefer the rifle to be appropriate to the portrayal.  Think of Bvt Col and Major Rattlesnake Jack; he dresses as a British officer, carries a Webley and Martini-Henry.  I'd prefer the rifle not be a "battlefield pickup" but this is something that can be discussed once we have the results of the first battle rifle trail.

US Scout
GAF, Commanding

[Drydock]

My sentiments egg-zack-tly sar!

[Drydock]

BTT

[Bristow Kid]

Sounds very interesting to me.  I look forward to seeing you shoot at the Muster.  Hope this becomes a reality sounds like a very fun and interesting new twist to the game.

[Drydock]

BTT--- FYI I'll be using the three primary US issue cartridge cavalry carbines:  the M1865 Spencer .56/.50, the M1873 Springfield .45-70 (Trapdoor) and the M1896 Krag .30 US.  Most of the match will be done with the Krag, with the others used for a stage or two to help establish our baseline data.

[Silver Creek Slim]

This sounds very interesting. My rolling block may not be quite army issue. 

Slim

[Bow View Haymaker]

I may be out of line here.  I don't know much about ncows. 

But just for info..  At our club ( a general rifle and pistol , club not just cas)We hold a Bolt Action military rifle match.  It is based on the standard 4 position highpower course of fire. Using 200yrd off hand targets for all four positions.   I know shooting paper isn't much fun for some but it would eliminate the need for lead only bullets in the rifles so Standard military ball ammo can be used.  It's a great match for Springfield's, mousers, enfields and nagants.  But they froun on the krags and older rifles at our matches. 

So Have you though about just having a military rifle match?  That seems to be the main part of what yo want to do.  Or shot the pistol stages like regular cowboy stages and shot a long range rifle part using paper at 100-200yrd from a prone or at least sitting/kneeling.

JUst an Idea??