Proposed Military Catagory

[Mustang Gregg]

Major:
Good!   If we can get a new category, that would be cool.  I do have a Mills-type shotgun belt that I use when SASS shooting in my USV uniform.  It's dyed blue as NG would've had.
As for the flap-type holster---I was just at an RO II school & it was put out that they are NOT approved by SASS.
Thanks,
Gregg

[Major Matt Lewis]

Hmmmmm,

That's funny.  You may want to ask for your money back.  Your instructor is FOS (Full Of Sxxx).  I have been an RO 2 for two years now and never heard of that....Not to mention, upon reading your post, I went to the SASS Home page and down loaded the handbook.  And under holsters, there is no mention of the flap at all.  Not to mention, Tex probably would not have suggested it if they were not legal


Not mentioned in the "Outlawed" Section or the "Safety" Safety section either. 

[Mustang Gregg]

Major:

I looked in the latest SASS handbook & you're correct---NO MENTION OF FLAP-TYPE HOLSTERS.  But I reckon it COULD be a sweep/safety issue.  Possibly since 2 hands are used to reholster(??).
   
    Maybe they were gettin' info outta an older SASS handbook.   
I will need to do some deep research to locate them older ruke books around here.

MG

[Drydock]

I have every issue of the handbook ever published, and can assure you flap holsters have NEVER been mentioned in any way.  Used a flap holster to shoot SASS for over 10 years.  The instructor is FOS, as was well put.  Substituiting uninformed opinion for fact happens at every level, unfortunatly.

Next time you hear something like that, just tell them "Show me where it says that!"  and pull out a handbook.  They'll hem and haw, and then say  "Well, I just thought . . ."

[Major Matt Lewis]

Let's also be perfectly clear here.

I did already submit the guidelines to SASS.  They are getting a little favorable traction.  The guidelines as submitted challange my shooting paradigms as well.  I currently do not shoot with flapped holsters and my shotshell belt is leather where I can grab 4 at once. 

If SASS wishes to go with this potential catagory, they may wish to change what I have submitted.  That is their perogortive.  So, there is not really anything open for debate here.  If you wish to support the cause petition your local clubs Territorial Govenor and club leadership.  If you have an axe to grind or are not comfortable, please, for the benefit of all of us, keep it quite.  If you don't support the guides, don't talk to your club leadership....

Also, keep in mind, it would be a damn shame if the SASS Wild Bunch or Territorial Govenors popped over here to read this and found out we are a fractionalize group of ranting dip shots....

Boys & Girls,

This is where we really need to have our collective head and rear wired on the same circuit....This is where the rubber meets the road.  We don't need bunny trails nor red herrings like the "Great Flapped Holster Controversy."

Also, keep in mind that the only rule book that we care about is the current edition, which was sent to us recently in The Chronical and is out on the SASS Website.  Remember, in last year's rule book, the Marlin 98 was legal.  Now it is not, as a case in point....

[Trailrider]

Major:

I looked in the latest SASS handbook & you're correct---NO MENTION OF FLAP-TYPE HOLSTERS.  But I reckon it COULD be a sweep/safety issue.  Possibly since 2 hands are used to reholster(??).
   
    Maybe they were gettin' info outta an older SASS handbook.   
I will need to do some deep research to locate them older ruke books around here.

MG

Gentlemen:

Why does it take two hands to reholster?  The flap can easily be held open by the thumb and wrist, or the flap can be tucked behind the belt.  I believe there is nothing in the Major's recommendations that requires the holster flap be fastened when the shooter is on the firing line.

The bigger "problem" is going to be how the butt-forward hang of the "issue" holster will affect the method of the draw.  The issue holsters have cant angles of about 22 degrees off vertical.  If the belt loops on the holsters are "as issued", they do not allow for the holster to be swung to vertical, so, technically, the shooter might be breaking the 170 if he uses a strong side twist draw.  I personally think this is a non-issue as shooters wearing high-ride, high-cut, strong-side, butt rear draw with a 7-1/2" barreled gun almost invariably breaks the 170 as the muzzle clears leather!  But, of course, nobody complains about this!  Nor should they!  In point of fact, I have stated time and time-again that the ONLY way a single action revolver, properly carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber, can discharge is if the shooter purposely touches the hammer spur with his/her thumb...or somebody hits them with a flame-thrower!  Keeping the thumb off the hammer until the gun is pointed downrange solves the problem, regardless of the holster hang or the style of carry.  Just convinve the RO's!  One solution might be a pair of "Forsythe"-style holsters, which were a full-flap, butt-rear (butt-forward versions were also made) holster, with various style belt loops for use with the wide canvas Mills belts or saber belts.  These may not have been issued until the 1890's, and then in small quantities for trials with the troops.

One thing I would suggest regarding holster rigs...  It is a fact, supported by at least one photo of a 6th Cav trooper, in Arizona in the 1880's, wearing a civilian Mexican loop holster and cartridge belt with his Colt's SAA butt REAR on the right side.  Might want to permit that so long as other pieces of uniform, though encouraging the wear of regulation rigs.  The other question is what to do about packing the second pistol, since that was definitely NOT regulation, and seldom practiced except perhaps during the "late unpleasantness", and then especially by Confederate troopers.

[Note: Please understand, I am NOT soliciting business for myself, although I do make holsters.  The above discussion is merely to bring up some factors that may need to be addressed in massaging the details of this new category.]

Re: The potential use of various rifles.  I do see somewhat of a difficulty in requiring the use of any certain repeating rifles, as it would be unreasonable to force someone otherwise interested in this catagory to purchase a different rifle, if, for example, he/she has a M1894 Marlin or M1892 Rossi.  I DO think the use of earlier repeating rifles (Henry, Winchester '66 and '73) be ENCOURAGED.  As to single shot rifles, I have some older Lyman handloading manuals that show 190 gr. bullets loaded with smokeless powder at around 1100-1300 ft/sec in the .45-70.  While most bullets in these lighter weights are for .45 LC and would be small for the .45-70 (.454 vs. .457).  It is possible that loads could be developed for, say 250 gr. .45 LC bullets, and the smaller bullets be used effectively for use in Trapdoor Springfields.  It MIGHT be necessary to obtain custom moulds or have one commercial bullet makers set up for .458" 250 gr. bullets.  If enough shooters went this route, we might be able to convince the "powders" to allow us to use single-shot rifles and carbines.

One thing that might discourage stage designers from allowing the use of single-shot rifles is the elapsed time required to shoot the same targets being used by repeaters.  A full "patrol" (posses are for civilians) might take an additional ten or fifteen minutes to shoot a stage versus using repeaters.

These are just some thoughts I've had on this matter.  I definitely support the effort to introduce a military shooting classification to SASS matches!

[Blackey Cole]

Maj.  US Scout may have said somethign that would work as a starting point for the category.  Make it a category like CC and BW where you may shoot ceertian pistols calibers Ie 44 and 45 as I am not knowledgable enough to make the comment that 38 were never issued but I never heard of anything other than 45 and 44 being issued to soidlers.  I think the dress should corespond to that of the other two dress classes.  Ie Shirt must be oof the designed issued to the enlisted soilder and for officers something that would have been worn while on campain.  Pants the same thing with the width of the strip to correspond to the grade.  Shoes either allow lace up if worn with garters or cavalry high tops if worn out side the pants leg or a uniform that woiuld pass muster if in garrison.  Uniforms changed depending on duty you could also use fatigues for stabel duty.  Leather sabare belt or the mills belt depending on custumes leather was worn in garrison and the canvas was used for campian duty.  Hat you could have a choise depending on duty the kepi or a slouch depending also on duty.  But if we could come up with requirementsa based on the format used for CC & BW then it might fly eaiser and then down the line if need be we modify it to become more authintic.  Right now I wear a uniform I got from Coon Creek which is no where near correct materials but toi the eye looks correct.  You saw me in it at EOT and it is more confortable for me than the wool.  The idea is to look the part not be the part.

[Major Matt Lewis]

Blackey,

Stand by a quick lesson...

The Navy and the Marine Corps never adapted the .45 LC SAA.  As a mater of fact they kept the 1851 Navy RM Conversion right up until 1889 when they adapted the Colt New Navy.  The 1851 RM Conversion, was chambered in .38 Colt, as was the Colt New Navy Models 1889, 1892 and 1895.  Not to mention the New Army Models that were readily available by the Spanish American War (1898).  Buy the way, the SASS time period does encompass the Spanish American War.  When I shoot, I mostly shoot as a Spanish American War/Boxer Rebellion Marine to avoid wearing wool uniforms, because I like to be mostly authentic when I "put it on."  At EOT, I bought a Rough Rider Outfit.   

If we followed the Classic Cowboy line too closely, than there really would not be a need for the Military Catagory, and from what I understand, the Classic Cowboy folks don't want us in thier backyard, which is one reason why the idea of a Military Catagory may have potential...

But knowing Scout pretty well, I believe that he was suggesting to built the catagory like Classic Cowboy, which is what I did.  My reasons for scripting all calibers was to specifically keep the option of the 1851 Navy and all the following .38 calibers in the class.  Not to mention that I know a lot of people who now have issues shooting the .45 because of Carple Tunnel, age, arthritus etc...Now, I am not saying the guidelines don't need tweaking, but the ball is in SASS' court now.  Let's focus having clubs let us play as a catagory.  I am sure that the powers that be as SASS will tweak them IF they decide to give the catagory a shot...

[Blackey Cole]

Maj, I think you misunderstood what I was saying as far as the CC issue,  What I was trying to say was have requirements for X number of items from a list like, Flap holster, sword, wild rag, suspenders, saber belt, Cap pouch, ammo box, Designation of rank on pants and shirt.  Etc have a list so the shooter can choose from to build their outfit.  Have it look better than be.  I said I wasn't sure of the caliber and thanks for setting me straight on that.  In no way was I saying for us to shoot in CC but have requirements on dress and equipment like they did for CC and BW.  Sorry to hit a nerve.

[Major Matt Lewis]

Didn't hit a nerve, most people rightfully so do not think of the Navy and Marines when shooting SASS.  But as to your point about require X amount of things, I am in total agreement.  I did not submit what I viewed the final outcome to be....as I know that if SASS adopts it, they will make changes...

[Pitspitr]

Boots shall be of either the squared toe cavalry style boots, Civil War style Brogans or some variation of, or the 1895 Combat Shoe.  No modern style combat boots will be allowed.  If the shooter does not wear cavalry style boots, the shooter must wear leggings.  Cavalry Style boots must be accompanied by spurs.

Major Lewis,
I'm a little confused by this and would like some clarification. (This could be construed as arguing but isn't meant that way) This would appear to leave my period "out in the cold" as the infantry shoe was redesigned in the early 1870's and leggins weren't issued untill the 1880's. Also at least one infantryman at Ft. Hartsuff wore cavalry style boots, but I doubt he wore spurs. How should I reconcile this rule with my persona?

[Major Matt Lewis]

You know, I actually had some thoughts around foot wear a couple of days a go.  If the proposal gets to the point of birth, than I am assuming (We all know what happens when we do that) that we would get the opportunity for a finalized guidelines.  What I sent in is just to get the conversation started....but agree with you as well as forgien troops may not have had leggings.....

[Trailrider]

Gentlemen:

I have been thinking (WARNING! WARNING! WARNING!) about the possibilities of using the big bore single-shot rifles in the military catagory.  For safety, such guns will HAVE to use loads that are no hotter than a comparable .45 LC round, i.e., 250 gr bullet at no more than about 1200 ft/sec.  One difficulty will be obtaining a 250 gr, .458" dia. bullet, as the .454" bullets would be too small, with the possible exception of using a soft bullet and BP.

Q.  DOES ANYONE KNOW OF A SOURCE OF READY-CAST BULLETS 250 gr. .457-.458" dia.?  I'd prefer HARD CAST for use with smokeless, but soft bullets might be used with BP.

The second problem is development loads that will produce the above velocities using smokeless powders.  The 250 gr bullet is VERY light for the case capacity of the .45-70, and some experimentation will be necessary to determine loads safe for Trapdoor Springfields, as well as staying within the velocity restrictions of SASS.  (I DO have a .45-70 rifle instrumented with a strain gage for the Oehler M43 PBL system.)  Has anyone else experimented with .45-70 loads of this type?

[Pitspitr]

Well Jim, one option might be a variation on the "gallery" load which is a .457 RB over 4gr FFF deep seated in the case. The biggest problem with load would be that they are difficult to feed. One might need to use somewhere around 15 gr to get "nock-downs"

[Trailrider]

Pitspitr,

That thought had also crossed my mind.  So far as feeding is concerned, with a good roll crimp, in a Trapdoor, it wouldn't be too bad...I don't think.  Anyway, until I can get some time, it will have to go on hold for awhile. I still would like to get some bullets like a .45 LC, but in .457-.458".  I may call around to various mould makers...Rapine, RCBS, etc....and see what they might be able to do...maybe lap out a mould or something, rather than cutting a new cherry...unless, of course there seemed to be enough market for a mould.

If you get to try something like the .457 RB, etc., post the data and let us know how it works out.

[Books OToole]

Why is there so much effort being made to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Authentic military arms of the Victorian era are not compatable with SASS or NCOWS rules regarding what arms can be used.

The GAF needs to develope its own rules, classes, etc.

Example Classes;

Enlisted infantry - 1873-1892 Single shot rifle - (they were not issured sidearms/pistols)
                         1892-1900 Bolt action rifle - (for those in the late 19th Century - still no side arms)

Enlisted Cavalry -  Pre-1873 Repeating carbine and cap & Ball revolver
                         1873-1892  Single shot carbine & a SAA.
                         1892-1900  Bolt action carbine & SAA.

Officer -              Revolver only.

Scout -               Just about anything goes.

Weapons & Uniforms must be matched for the era portrayed.  For military personell they must unit's TO& E for the era.

Most Targets will stand up to 45-70 government.  Targets that will hold up under mil-spec .30 cal. Government (.30-40 Krag) are out there.

This will take no more effort that all the "whittling" that is being done to get the square GAF peg into the SASS round hole.

And the final product will be far superior.

Just the humble opinion of an old military living-historian. (Who is becoming a decent CAS shooter.)

Michael "Books" Tatham
Capt. 5th Kansas Battery
Acting Artillery Commander, Dept. of Missouri

[Drydock]

SASS/NCOWs are not going to allow the big single shots on the line.  Not gonna happen. If you want to use a Milspec weapon in a cowboy style match, your best bet is going to be GAF. We are formulating rules for just this sort of thing.

Join it, encourage it, maybe have a Mini Muster side match, or try a Muster Match at your club on a 5th weekend, if there can be enough interest shown.

[Blackey Cole]

What no Hollywood class?
Also where do you get a TO&E?

[Blackey Cole]

Current SASS alows the Spencer in the origianl cartridge? plus the pistol caliber versions that were reproduced to be legal before this year.

[Books OToole]

Driydock;

According to Griz the KVC tests all new targets with a hot .45-70.  If it breaks, it was a defective target.

Blackey;

HMMMMM. Since we are starting from the ground up, we can do anything we want.

I just rewatched Major Dundee last night.  Some effort was made to be weapons correct.  The cartridge conversions for cap & ball pistols were better than Peacemakers.  They called their rifles Henrys but they were really brass plated '92s without a forestock.  This was pretty neat since the film was made before any Henry reproductions were available.  Lt. Graham's "baby howizer" should have be a 12 pound Mountain Howitzer. [Now that would have been too cool.]

Hmmmm.  A Hollywood class for those who just want to shoot SASS in a uniform of sorts.  I think that would be okay, as long as there are also some authentic classes.

Michael "Books" Tatham
Capt. 5th Kansas Battery
Acting Artillery Commander, Dept. of Missouri