Revolver power in the Civil War

[Oregon Bill]

      As my great-grandfather fought with the Third Wisconsin Cavalry along the Kansas/Missouri border, I recently finished reading "Black Flag," an account of the border wars.
      In it is this account of the killing of Marshall Cleveland, a border ruffian of the worst sort who pillaged and killed Union and rebel families alike:
     "As Private John T. Johnson was riding along the bank he discovered Cleveland under the same, and partly concealed by the roots of a tree. Each drew his revolver, but Johnson, it seems, was the coolest for he aimed and fired almost perpendicularly downwards towards Cleveland, the ball entering the right shoulder near the neck passing through the heart and out  just above the left hip.
     "Cleveland seemed conscious for a few moments, for others coming up and leveliing their pieces at hime he said 'Oh, don't, boys!' and gasping, died."
      Kind of says something about the power of the Army revolver doesn't it? Good chance this was the paper-cartridge conical load.
     

[Silver Creek Slim]

I don't know how much they used paper-cartridge conicals in the war.

BTW, I have two ancestors (bro.-in-laws) that were in the 1st WI Cavalry.

Slim

[Mogorilla]

Well, I shoot an Colt 1860 army and they will definitely get the job done.  We shot a 1911 .45 , a baretta 9mm, 1860 colt .454 ball with 30 grains bp, and an 1851 colt .375 with 20 grains bp.   We shot into KC phone books.   At a distance of 10 yards, the 1860 and the 1851 had the best penetration, but it was a near perfect whole, very little deformation of the balls (although it was about 10 degrees F outside at the time, maybe they were frozen.  Most damage was the 1911.  Both it and the 9mm did significant damage to the books.   The two guys I was with were the suppliers of the 1911 and baretta 9.  They gave me a lot of grief about my ancient choices, I should stick with throwing stones, etc.  One in particular is a Parole officer and he joked they aren't real, even a felon can buy one.   He changed his tune afterwards.  They were both quiet when we looked at penetration.   (p.s.  They both own one now.    )

[St. George]

Since we're talking ancestors - my GG-Grandfather rode with the 2d Iowa Volunteer Cavalry and my GG-Uncle with DeBray's 5th Texas.

Not to take anything away - but a shot like that - if the round missed the clavicle - doesn't encounter a whole helluva lot in the way of resistance.

Now - oddly enough - in 'Sixguns' by Keith - he talks about the killing power of the percussion guns and according to what was told to him by living Confederate Cavalry veterans - the .36 round ball was a far better killer than one might think.

The bulk of Federal-issued .44 ammunition was paper-wrapped conical ball, and though it'd penetrate - apparently  it lacked wallop - whereas the round ball - with a greater striking surface - was more efficient.

I recommend reading 'Sixguns' whenever you can.
You'll add to your knowledge of what a handgun is capable of - plus a lot of arcane information, to boot.

Scouts Out!

[Delmonico]

In the science of ballistics, the term power is a hard item to really measure.  One reason the 36 calibers may have had a reputation of better killing power might have been that if they were loaded with round ball instead of the conical of the 44, the velocity would have been higher.  Thes could have lead to better penatration and maybe a little my hydroscopic damage at closer range. 

On the other side of the coin, Print Olive, a Texas cattleman and Confederate Vetran, was shot with a 36 Navy in a gunfight in one of the cattle towns, he killed the other fellow with his 1860 and always said he was glad the other fellow only had a 36 caliber or he would have been dead.

With all the varibles it is really hard to decide what is a better killer.  One must always remember a bullet kills one of two ways, either by destroying enough of the central nervous system to shut off the heart, or by causing enough tissue damage to cause a hemorage bad enough to cause the brain to cease to function.

And as St. George has said, read Sixguns, a valuable book by a man who knew a lot about handguns.

[Silver Creek Slim]

I will echo that "Sixguns" is a must read.

Slim

[Oregon Bill]

I agree on "Sixguns." Read it cover to cover at least twice, as well as "Hell, I was There."
AS to the power of the load in the quotation, I often hear that paper ballistics show the .44 cap and balls on par with a .38 special for KE. But even if no bone was struck, a bullet into the neck, through the heart and thoracic cavity and out the side near the hip is considerably more punch than I would expect any .38 special to deliver.

[gotzguns]

several years ago a friend of mine bought a private collection of civil war arms and ammunition. in this collection there was a large number of colt combustable cartridges some lose some in there small wooden packs. severl were very badly damaged and my friend gave them to me. i examined them closely and even took a few of the worst ones apart. i was suprised at what i found. of the 36 cartridges that i opened i never found more then 15 grains of what looked to me like 3f. of the 44 cartridges i never found more then 17 grains of a 3f type black powder. my cartridges were only conocial balls but i wounder if anyone out there ever heard what the standard cumbustable cartridge charge was? there had to be some standard set for the mass production of these cartridges. since there were so many 44 and 36 cal. pistols made here and in europe that were bought by the north and south for there militarys. anyone ever heard or read anything?  gotzguns

[Books OToole]

Once upon a time, I was playing poker at a rail head tent-saloon.  There were six of us and its was a pretty peacable affair.  After

and hour or so one young rake hell started to get disgruntled.  He had experienced one heck of a losing streak.  When I won the

pot that contained his last dollar, I gave it back to him so he could get a bite to eat.  I thought it was a nice gesture, but he

didn't.  He pulled a .32 cal. pocket model and shot me square in the chest.  Fotunately a friend had loaned me a book she

thought that I ought to read, and I had placed in the inside pocket of my coat.  It felt like a stong man had punched me in the

chest and knocked the wind out of me.  His second shot probably would have done me in, if he'd gotten it off.  While I sat in

shock trying to get my breath and figure out what happened;  The other four poker players pulled iron and shot the sore loser to

pieces.

Later when I examined the book, the bullet had penetrated the front cover and all of the pages, but not the back cover.  The bullet was so un-deformed it probably could have been reloaded.

I still carry that book as a good luck charm.  I'll have it a Hooten Old town in a couple of weeks it any body would like to take a look.

Books