Uberti 66, American Arms Inc., OK? Other questions

Daybreak Dave · May 14, 2006, 04:49:02 PM

I have a Cimmaron (Uberti) SAA in 45 LC and looking at a 66 to match. Probably would shoot blackpowder. I have never shot once in a shoot, but intend to have some fun getting ready and do it someday. Four questions. (It started out as two questions)
1. Is a Uberti 66 a Uberti 66 no matter who it was made for and who sells or sold it? I see them sold under various names, including the, I think, now defunct American Arms Inc. , which I am looking at. I am talking about the way the gun feeds and works and shoots, not things like quality of wood.
2. Do the 45LC feed and shoot OK in a Uberti 66, or are there problems with the short cartridge any more than with some other cartridges.

3. Is a 45LC in a rifle looked at as "not very original"? In other words, do NCOWS members tend to stay with more period correct cartridges/gun combinations, or do you find people shooting 45LC as well as other "non correct" combos?

4. Is it absolutely necessary to shoot the same caliber in both pistol and rifle, at least for a beginner until I see how I feel about all this, for safety reasons or otherwise?

Just as an aside, yesterday I shot my 1887 Winchester 12 ga. (first year original) for the first time
with some brass BP shells loaded by a fellow in Wisconsin. Busted a couple clays, what a joy. I did not realize what a "gentle push" there was to the blackpowder. Pretty clumsy old brute, and maybe not as reliable as could be with the single extractor on this early gun, but it sure brings back thoughts of "those days"

Thanks for any help on any of the questions,
David M

gw · May 14, 2006, 05:47:35 PM

Well, Dave, let me take a shot at this. First off, my hat's off to you for actually asking these questions rather than not. Wish more prospective shooters would do this. Anyway, the answer to your first question is no, there is not really any difference in Uberti firearms save cosmetics. As a former dealer, I sold many Uberti made guns imported by American Arms and they all seemed to work just fine. Some were a little rough around the edges and all needed some action work/polishing but they loaded, fired and ejected just fine.
Your second question about 45 Colt in a rifle....not very original----well, fact is, it's not original at all! Balloon head cases in 45 Colt had hardly any rim at all on them in comparison to today's cartridges and they would not eject reliably from a rifle(sort of like your '87 only for a different reason). The only reason they work today is because of the larger rim. They will work fine in a modern rifle(with modern brass). Because they are a straight wall case, they don't seal the chamber as well as a bottleneck cartridge and some blowby will result. This can be mitigated some by the use of heavier bullets and good solid crimps.(your 3rd question)
Finally, there is nothing to say you have to, should or even would want to shoot a rifle and pistol in the same caliber. It's certainly more traditional not to. On the other hand, it does make reloading easier, carrying extra ammo simpler and life in general nicer! I can tell you from experience that a 44-40 will fire in a 45 Colt firearm!!! So......the choice is yours, for a new shooter, same caliber is simpler---always a good thing. Different calibers---more authentic---more to remember! How about 44-40 in both to solve the dilemma? Good luck and hope to shoot with you sometime.

GW

I've got an early single extractor '87 myself so I do know what you're saying about them!

Daybreak Dave · May 14, 2006, 06:34:26 PM

GW,
Thanks for your info. I apologize for asking too many questions over too broad an area, I guess my initial question on the 45LC Uberti 66 just got me started. I am glad to get the info on the Ubertis, this is something I have always wondered about. Your suggestion on the 44-40 is a good thing to consider; I tend to want to go with something to "match up" to my 45 SAA clone, which as you say will work - but I need to look at the long run also and maybe that is not where I want to really want to end up. Especially with the black powder and the benefits of a better chamber seal.

I can see now that NCOWS shooters could find many reasons to trade and buy new guns - lots of choices and good reasons for all of them! That is part of the enjoyment, too.

Thanks again,
Daybreak Dave (I am so new at this I almost forgot my "new" name)

Wymore Wrangler · May 14, 2006, 07:14:27 PM

I agree a Uberti is a Uberti, a great many folks shoot 45 long colt rifles in NCOWS and you never think twice about it, but bottle neck cartridges are indeed better for black powder. Shooting the same cartridge in both your pistol and rifle also adds a safety factor, while the 44-40 may shoot in a 45, I'd say just about everyone would not recommend doing it. When your reloading on the clock and your trying to get a fast time on a stage, do you really want to think did I just grab the wrong ammo and will it cause a malfunction in my rifle, or worse. Remember, the first and only rule to remember is safety first, and last....

Surly Bob · May 14, 2006, 08:43:24 PM

Wymore's right. Don't ever shoot a 44-40 in a gun chambered for 45 LC as it is not safe at all. I'm a darksider convert and now I am casting bullets and shooting duelist these days (both hands, not both guns with one hand like a sissy). I wish I had all my guns chambered in 44-40 or perhaps something smaller and easier to manage recoil like 38-40. They key is the necked down case to reduce blowby.

However, I think if you can't afford to switch guns (like me), you could still do fine with 45 LC. I'm shooting 45 LC with full loads of black powder. The case seals just fine. The only problem you may encounter would be if you wanted to reduce recoil by using fillers or wads to take up powder space. Then I'm sure you would experience some blow by and get your nose "powdered" with the soot of champions! I've learned to reduce recoil by other means (lighter bullets). Welcome to the Holy Black! Like they say, once you go black, it's hard to go back!

gw · May 15, 2006, 05:53:03 AM

I certainly wasn't recommending for anyone to shoot 44-40 in a 45. I had this experience many years ago as a greenhorn shooter who thought he could handle different calibers at that time. Was I ever wrong!!! For someone just starting to shoot, I'd strongly advise using the same caliber until they become comfortable with their guns and have the experience to handle different rounds for different firearms. Yes, it is a safety issue, and no, that 44-40 didn't split or otherwise cause a problem.

GW

Cuts Crooked · May 15, 2006, 07:39:47 AM

Pards, black powder .45 in lever guns IS doable! I'll show you how:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,6290.0.html

Trap · May 15, 2006, 09:19:35 AM

D. Dave ,

If I was starting over I would go 44-40. But went with 45 because people told me the 44-40 was harder to load. I alternate between a 66 and 73 , both Ubertis, Shoot black and pyrodex, never have any blowback problems. As for 45s in NCOWS , noone should give you any grief about legality. jt

Daybreak Dave · May 15, 2006, 12:21:10 PM

Thanks to all who have contributed to answering my questions. I appreciate your time and interest. I have better info now on which way to go with the calibers. I don't use this forum often, but when I do, I get quick, useful responses. Thanks again, that is what makes NCOWS great and helps it to grow, to help out a greenhorn like me.

Daybreak Dave

Books OToole · May 15, 2006, 01:02:06 PM

As a greenhorn to NCOWS shooting in '04, I started with a Uberti '66 in .45 Colt.

At last years National shoot at Ackley, I shot clean with it, except for one reload problem (My own fault) and the front site coming loose (Lock-tite the set screw.)

NCOWS is a great organization and a Uberti '66 is a great starter rifle. As a matter of fact, 5 of the 10 original 'Originals' were using '66s (unknown if they were all Uberti's).

Books

James Hunt · May 15, 2006, 02:33:47 PM

Wellcome to the group, you'll have a great time. My 2 cents: I have never owned a .44-40 anything. Howver I have a 73 and 92 Win in .38-40. Nice guns and nice cartridge. In NCOWS I shoot a SAA in .45. I have a Henry in .45. When I purchased the Henry I anguished over the .44-40, was it more original, etc.?Or, would it make more sense to shoot .45 as I had all the reloading stuff? Would it be safer to shoot .45 since I would not be confused? While doing this I was cradleing a .45 Henry. I think the small gun store owner got worried as I set the rifle back and he said, "tell you what I'll knock $100 bucks off the .45 because most guy's are buying the .44-40". Decision made.

Since, I have had no regrets. The rifle feeds flawlessly, it is more accurate than either my original 73 or 92 at 50 yds. Not a fan of Italian guns, I admit they got this one right! Since stripping the red stain/varnish off of the stock and refinishing it, it is really a nice looking gun.

Concerning, blowback with the .45. Everyone talks about it, and since I am no gunsmith it must occur. Having said that, I can not see a difference between my 73 or 92 with the .38-40 and the Henry in .45 when it comes to BP fouling. Of course the former two are 100+ year old guns, but to me if there is blowback it is just not significant. Of course I'm a sample size of 1, but I have seen no disadvantage in it.

Regarding authenticity, OK I plead at least a little guilty there. However, I have this great response worked up regarding the use of a straight walled case versus a bottleneck cartridge. So far I have never had to use it, no one has ever critiqued me on the issue. So much for that concern and as a new shooter (or as in the case of most of us on this board, an old shooter who is old and gets confused easily) there would be alot to suggest similar calibers in the "heat" of competition.

Regardless, hats off to you for asking before you take the financial plunge and look forward to seeing you (the Nationals would be a great start if you can make it!)

RattlesnakeJack · May 15, 2006, 06:10:16 PM

Suppose I'll weigh in on this discussion ....

I have shot .45 Colt in my revolvers, and also rifles, for years - even before getting involved in cowboy action shooting, since it was the cartridge I loaded for both revolvers and pistol-caliber rifle when I was shooting in black powder competitions.

Did they chamber rifles in .45 Colt back in the 19th Century? No.

But, unless my eyesight is a lot worse than most folks (.... it is pretty bad, mind you .... $:-\$ ) who can honestly tell what cartridge you are actually shooting, from even 2 feet away? The various "full length" .44 and .45 cartridges are so similar in appearance that even the individual handling the cartridges can mistake one for the other, and run the risk of accidentally chambering and firing a .44-40 in a .45 Colt firearm - as has already been discussed in this thread.

In my view, that is the real reason that even NCOWS allows rifles chambered in .45 Colt - it is a "period cartridge", and the use of appropriate rifle models chambered for it does not seriously detract from "authentic appearance" any more than some synthetic fiber in the fabric blend of an otherwise historically correct garment. (For that matter, let's not forget that the NCOWS Bylaws state: ".38 Special/.357 Magnum and .44 Special/.44 Magnum cartridges will be allowed if loaded with black powder or with smokeless powder to black powder velocities." They made that concession to practicality, so surely there should never be an objection to use of a rifle chambered in .45 Colt!)

Sam Perfye · May 15, 2006, 06:15:42 PM

DD, No one I have ever met at an NCOWS match has ever offered more than good natured ribbing over anyone's choice of caliber. No matter how authentic we want to be we must use the gun/caliber combinations that are available. That being said, my own combo is 44-40 and 45 colt. It takes alittle more planning at the loading table but is not unreasonable. My own method is two brass bags, one for 44-40 and the other for 45. I shot all last season this way and never had any problems. I'm in central IA. myself, and if I can be of any assistance please let me know, Lord knows we need more BP shooters

Smoke and Flame is the way to go. See Ya, Al.

Sam Perfye · May 15, 2006, 06:16:48 PM

DD, No one I have ever met at an NCOWS match has ever offered more than good natured ribbing over anyone's choice of caliber. No matter how authentic we want to be we must use the gun/caliber combinations that are available. That being said, my own combo is 44-40 and 45 colt. It takes alittle more planning at the loading table but is not unreasonable. My own method is two brass bags, one for 44-40 and the other for 45. I shot all last season this way and never had any problems. I'm in central IA. myself, and if I can be of any assistance please let me know, Lord knows we need more BP shooters

Smoke and Flame is the way to go. See Ya, Al.

Books OToole · May 15, 2006, 06:30:04 PM

In the 19th century Winchester did not manufacture rifles chambered for .45 Colt. However, according to The Wincherster Handbook by George Madis, in discussing the model '66 he states; "many conversions were done outside the factory, and a fair number of guns were re-chambered to fire other cartridges, both center fire and rim fire." (page 16). That stated, there are no known original '66s chambered for .45 Colt. [That little tib-bit is why I carry a '66 in .45 Colt, rather than a '73 in that caliber. Both are NCOWS legal.]

Books

Delmonico · May 15, 2006, 06:37:20 PM

A little know fact is a few of the last 66's were chambered in the 44 Henry Centerfire, really just a 44 S&W American with a flat-point bullet, most are said to have been shipped to South America.

O.T. Buchannan · May 16, 2006, 08:23:37 AM

My Henry is in .44-40, but my 66 Carbine is in .45 Colt. I shoot blackpowder in both. If I had it to do all over again, I would purchase that 66 in .44-40, but like James Hunt, I got a very good deal on it, and I've had no regrets! In fact, I will be using my 66 at the National Shoot next month.

As far as cartridge interchangeability goes, I've been shooting this game for 17 tears now, and I have NEVER had interchangeable rifle and pistol cartridges, and I've never had an issue with it either. Part of that is the way my ammo is set up for loading and reloading (rifle and pistol cartridges are in different color boxes, and the ammo is stored at different places on my person for reloading under time, when that is called for). The other part of this is just that I've been 'fortunate' enough to not get discombobulated loading on the clock at a match....

Delmonico · May 16, 2006, 08:44:46 AM

I always liked the story of the Texas Ranger with the 73, while pinned down by Commanches, he tried to load a 45 Colt into his 73, which didn't work well. While the rest kept up the fight, he took his knife and removed the sideplate, removed the jammed cartridge and put back on the sideplate, to continue.

No mention is made as to if his companions were upset with him for being stupid.