'Nother article in the Summer issue of "Guns of the Old West" question

[Cyrille]

 In the article titled "Taylor's .44/.45 Colt 1860 Army,"  useing a R&D conversion cylinder for cartridge loads the author states that "I tested it with both Winchester cowboy ammo and my more powerful blackpowder black powder handloads. The Uberti revolver shot them both comfortably,"---
My concern is this... In all of the BP guns I have shot,  it says on the barrel,"For Black Powder Only." If the author of the article [Mike Beliveau] used Winchester's 'cowboy' loads. then he used "smokeless powder" in the "Colt 1860 OA." Is the Uberti 1860 OA built to handle 'smokeless?' Or for that matter is the Uberti Walker/Colt which I  plan on buying in the near future?  If this is so then this is the first I've heard of it!
  Any comments on this subject would be most welcome.
                                                               

[Bottom Dealin Mike]

The R&D cartridge conversion cylinders are built to handle smokeless ammunition within Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) levels for the round in question. In fact they are proofed to stand much higher pressures, so they are safe to shoot with factory smokeless ammo.

Having said that there are a couple of caviats with open top revolvers. Because the forcing cone area isn't reinforced by being screwed into a frame, it is susseptible to cracking if high pressure ammo is used, especially with very hard lead or jacketed bullets. So stay away from +P ammo.

Other than that you should have no problem.

[Chance]

I recently spoke with a lady from Uberti who said that they use a different steel for the BP pistols to that used on their cartridge revolvers. Hence the warning on the barrel "Black Powder Only".

[Cyrille]

Yes, I knew that;  I am also aware that BP loaded according to instructions that comes with the piece or from a reputable reloading manuel is safe and well within the bounds of SAAMI recomended loads.
   What I was surprised to learn was that the author of the article used "smokeless" powder in a blackpowder only revolver and it didn't blow up!
  I had assumed that the conversion cylinder was of the same tensil strenth as the rest of the gun. or is the gun  i.e. the  Uberti OA or  Walker/Colt also made of the same steel as the conversion cylinder?

[Bottom Dealin Mike]

The steel used in cap and ball revolvers is for the most part dead soft, but the steel in R&D conversion cylinders are made from 4150 arselal grade steel which is then heat treated to withstand smokeless cartridge pressures. These guns, with R&D cylinders are quite safe to shoot with SAAMI compliant factory loads.

BTW, just for the record, I'm the author of that article and I've fired thousands of smokeless rounds through cartridge conversion cylinders.

[Cyrille]

Well! That last bit of information is also a surprise, the author, very glad to meet you sir, and I mean that sincerly. I too am an author , a poet, you are the second author I've met in Cas City, the other is Mr. Coop Trawlaine, perhaps you've met him?
Anyway, thanks for information I was really surprised when I read your article Now if I want to shoot the Walker/Colt "indoors" I can, It's mighty hard to find an out of doors place to shoot around here since the lawyers and bankers moved in. Thanks again.

[RattlesnakeJack]

In a revolver, it is the cylinder that is subjected to the most pressure, by far, when a round is fired - the cylinder/barrel gap, small as it is, offers a very significant "pressure vent".   So, even though open-tops certainly aren't the strongest of revolver designs, there is no realistic prospect of a barrel rupture, particularly with light to moderate smokeless loads.  I'd be more concerned with wear/stretcing over time of the barrel wedge slot in the cylinder pin - but that can happen eventually even with black powder loads ....

[Delmonico]

I may be wrong here but if one was to fire smokless rounds in a cap and ball I would be more afraid of what came out the back of the nipples.  I know of a fool/fellow who made that mistake back in the 70's.  Nothing really bad happened, luckly, except he said it recocked the hammer.  Thats what caused him to think something was wrong.

[US Scout]

Del,

No one is talking about shooting smokeless powder in a percussion cylinder.  The question was about shooting smokeless cartridges out of a new-made conversion cylinder, such as manufactured by Kirst or R&D.

[Delmonico]

I know but in those the holes in the end are the real weak link, with out the nipples it also makes them safer with smokeless.

[US Scout]

Very true.  I concur that taking out the nipples (cones) on a C&B revolver makes it much safer when shooting smokeless. 

[Chance]

So, even though open-tops certainly aren't the strongest of revolver designs, there is no realistic prospect of a barrel rupture, particularly with light to moderate smokeless loads. 

I have seen a repro Rogers and Spencer revolver where the barrel was bulged through the use of a BP substitute. Once again, these barrels are only proofed for BP.

[Cyrille]

So what you are saying Mr. Chance, if I read you correctly, is that I can and should use only BP in the conversion cylinder so as not to chance a bluge or worse in the barrel of the repo Walker/Colt because of the soft steel used.

[Cyrille]

Very true.  I concur that taking out the nipples (cones) on a C&B revolver makes it much safer when shooting smokeless. 

I really hadn't thought about that, because I have yet to purchase the firearm--- but I most likely would have came to the same conclusion. However I thank you very much for the advice.

[Delmonico]

A lot of the cheap revolvers from around the turn of the century in 32 S&W, 38 S&W and other similar rounds also had plain low carbon steel cylinders and barrels and yet were proofed for Nitro rounds.  These develop pressures similar to "Cowboy Rounds."

A barrel bulge in a revolver almost always is caused by a barrel obstuction, in fact almost all barrel bulges in any firearm are from obstrutions, not everyone always wants to admit it though or even realize that it was the real cause.

[Chance]

So what you are saying Mr. Chance, if I read you correctly, is that I can and should use only BP in the conversion cylinder so as not to chance a bluge or worse in the barrel of the repo Walker/Colt because of the soft steel used.

I have met Mr. Pedersoli and representatives from Uberti and the bottom line is that if the barrel of your BP revolver incurs any damage from the use of smokeless powder, whatever the cause, then you have no comeback. The lady from Uberti categorically stated that they use two types of steel - one for BP and one for smokeless. When the guns are sent to the Italian proof house they are tested with the corresponding propellant.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Let's try this again from the top.

R&D cylinders are proofed for SAAMI strength Smokeless cartridges. I thought they were made from 4140 steel, but 4140 or 4150, the point is they are made from the same type of steel that most modern arms makers use to make Smokeless firearms. The cylinders are then heat treated to bring the strength up to a point where they can take the stresses of standard SAAMI loads. This is the same way S&W makes cylinders that could normally only take the pressure of 38Sp loads able to withstand 357 Mag. R&D plainly states on the literature that comes the cylinders that they can take the pressures of Smokeless 'Cowboy Loads'. The simple truth is R&D cylinders are much better made than the cylinder that comes with any Cap & Ball revovler. They are more precisely made, and they are stronger. Why do you think they cost so much?

In any revolver, it is the cylinder that is most vulnerable to the pressure when a cartridge fires and whenever a revolver blows up it is almost always the cylinder that actually blows up. The cylinder is the 'weak link' in the chain. Take a look at how thin the steel is between chambers on a large caliber revolver, and then look at how thick the steel is in the barrel. The section of the chamber directly under the locking slot on the cylinder is also a weak spot. There is very little metal there. Even with the relatively weak steel that Uberti may or may not be using in the rest of the gun, it is the cylinder that is most likely to fail.

I have seen plenty of revolver barrels that have been bulged by a round striking a barrel obstruction. If one fires a second round after a bullet has lodged in the barrel, you will probably bulge the barrel. The pressure buildup may be enough to blow the cylinder. It happens. But you are not going to blow up a barrel by shooting SAAMI spec Smokeless rounds through an unubstructed barrel. If you shoot loads that are too hot, it is the cylinder, not the barrel, that will let go.

If you fire a second round into an ubstructed barrel, nobody is going to give you your money back anyway, no matter what kind of powder you were using. That is clearly operator error.

You will be just fine shooting Cowboy Loads through a C&B gun with an R&D cylinder.