BP problems again - getting frustrating

[Mean Matt McCord]

Okay, I must ask the Lords of the Soot for their advice.

Tried BP shooting again this weekend, with exactly the same results as the last time...my pistols kept locking up. Now for the background...

I bought some BP-loaded 45 rounds from a well-known ammo company (ain't gonna name them right now). This was used brass that I had sent to them for reloading. First time I tried it (12/05), cylinders locked up. Found primers that had backed out of the brass. For the record, the same reloaded ammo worked just fine in the rifle. Sent the ammo back to said manufacturer. Manufacturer played around with it , then reported to me that he was able to duplicate my problem, but when he cleaned his pistols real good, the problem went away. I remembered that I had not cleaned my pistols prior to shooting that day. So, last week, I cleaned them REAL good. Get up to the first stage...pistol cylinders lock up. With regard to what I was asking some BP shooters last week about cylinder gaps, I take a file and slightly file down the barrel ends to try and increase the gap. Used the pure crap out of Ballistol as well. Cleaned both pistols between each stage. I still get cylinder lock up. After three stages of this, I finally noticed (don't ask me why it didn't hit me before) that when I manage to get the spent cases out of the cylinders, they all spin freely. I look at the cases I just took out...and once again, the primers are backing out.

Both pistols are EMF Dakotas (old ASM frames).  Both are four years old.  Up to this point, I have shot smokeless.  There is a noticeable amount of roughness inside the cylinder chambers, right about at the junction where the end of the brass would be when you load the pistols.

Most of the brass involved is Starline brass, shot at least twice before it was reloaded with what I have now.  The primers are Federal.

In most cases, when I took the spent cases out of the pistols, there was a lot of fouling on the outside of the cases.  Some of them were extremely difficult to remove as well.

What am I doing wrong? If there something wrong with my pistols that could be causing this problem? Did I just get bad ammo? HELP!!!

[TAkaho kid]

Matt,

Sorry to hear about your frustrations.

It sounds to me like the load is goofy. Not the pistol.

First off what powder is he using? Is it a sub or the real deal? Those popping primers are telling you something.  Are they the proper size?

I have never had a primer pop using (real) black powder. (I have had them not seated properly - my fault)

The heavy fouling on the outside of the case means its not oburating (sp) or expanding properly to seal the chamber. With a straight case such as the 45 colt some blowback is to be expected but not to the point of being hard to eject after only a few rounds. This could be caused or contibuted to by hard brass and light loads. Whats the charge and bullet weight?

Bullet lube? Whats he using?

Gives us a few more details and I am sure we can get you on track.

[Silver Creek Slim]

Does the cylinder spin freely after you load the chambers and before you shoot? Trying to determine if the primers are seated correctly. If the cyinder spins freely, then Takaho Kid's questions come into play.

Slim

[Mean Matt McCord]

I knew I would leave somethign out.  My apologies.

This is Goex Clearshot.  I shoot 45LC, 200 grain bullets.

Yes, the cylinders spun freely after I loaded, and before I shot.  They would also spin freely after unloading, which I think pretty much eliminated the possibility of fouling around the cylinder base pin, although I could be wrong (no surprise there).

[DJ]

I know that if you fire empty primed cases, primers tend to back out.  And the dirty outsides of the cases suggest possible low pressure.  Is this some kind of very light load?  When you decap the primers, do they drop out readily, or do they still require some force?  If they pretty much drop out, it sounds like oversized primer pockets.  Do you know whether they might have been fired with hot smokeless loads (or been fired several times in the past)?  Either one could loosen up primer pockets. 

But my suspicions would fall first on the load, then on the brass.  I sure wouldn't start removing metal from my revolver until I had tried at least a couple of other loads from a different source.  It's too hard to put the metal back.

[Howdy Doody]

Just some points that cross my mind are.......
Starline brass is about the thickest of the bunch. I could see where you could not fill the chamber with the case to keep from dirtying up the cases with blowback. 45lc all seem to get a little blowback though, but not as bad as you describe.
Primers backing out might be from too light a load actually.
I didn't think Goex Clearshot had been available for at least 3 years. Is this old powder? Are they making it again?
45 brass seems to like a good crimp. Are the cases crimped well onto the bullet?
Try something eles before you throw in the towel. Ammo that works well in one gun might not work well in another.

[Silver Creek Slim]

I just talked to a little birdie (well, maybe not little ). One thing to check first. Is there a burr on the firing pin hole? If these loads are stouter than your smokeless loads, the cases may be backing out more and binding on the burr. I had a Remington clone that had this happen to. I stoned the burr off then it worked fine.

Slim

[Dick Dastardly]

Here's a little known item.  All primers back out on ignition and the brass backs up and seats 'em again.  If the brass doesn't back up tight against the back of the frame the primer will be hanging out there.  Rough chambers would tend to hang on to the brass and with a light load the brass wouldn't back up and seat the primers.

Tell me this, does the same thing happen with heathen smokeyless powder ammo?  If not, it's definately the bp ammo.  Try some bp warthog loads if you can borrow some from another darksider.  I'm talkin' a full case of compressed Holy Black pushin' a PRS 45-250 bullet or equivalent.  I'm bettn' they won't give you a problem with the primers stickin' out.

There are a couple of solutions that will help.  First, polish those chambers.  Don't take off metal needlessly, but do work 'em up to a high shine so when ya open the loadin' gate the empty hulls fall out.  Second, make sure the pressure of your loads are up to SAAMI minimums.  Yes, there are minimums as well as maximums for just this reason.  Your guns were made to function in a certain pressure range and you want ammo that stays within those limits.

Enjoy the smoke!

DD-DLoS

[hellgate]

It sounds like your loads are too low pressure and the primers are not reseating by backthrust on the cases. CLEARshot is much lower pressure that any of the other subs I have used and I've used most all of them. Get some 45LC loaded up with 777 and that pressure ought to tell you the  story. It is somewhere between smokeless and BP in power.
After firing with your "BP" reloads, turn the cylinder by hand for a couple rotations and see if there are drag marks on the primers. That'll tell you where the hangup is. I'll bet the primers will show drag marks.

[sundance44`s]

Something else we that do our own reloading  would try is a different brand of primmer .. some primmers do better with the smokeless powder than they will with the B/P and subs .maybe you could get your reloader to try some winchester primmers , i`ve never used the federal primmers , some of my shooting pards have had problems with them , i`ve been useing winchester large pistol primmers with all the subs and never had one back out . but if one is gonna back out it would happen with the pistol instead of the rifle because of the rifles locking bolt , the pistols lack .

[Paladin UK]

I wuz told a while back that magnum primer walls were itsy bitsy thicker in the others.......

Whether theres any real truth in this I dont know but it dont hurt ta add it to yer  `Ta Try List`!!

Paladin (What had a good blat with his rollin block today ) UK