Anyone using IMR 4227

[Guage Rod]

Hello the Wire, anyone out there using IMR 4227 for their smokeless loads?  I read somewhere that it was one of the older smokeless powder formulas and was high volumn, slow burning.  I loaded several (250) rounds over the weekend in 38 cal. extra long colts (357), using 10 grains, with a slug wht of 125 and 148 grains RNFP, using federal mag small pistol primers.

Looking at the loading tables for 44 mag and 45 LC, they show as high as 17 grains of the stuff, and show that it is actualy a compression load with 240-250 grain bullets.  Anyone have any luck with this powder.  I might like to load some of the larger calibers but did not want to load until I tried it on the smaller calibers first.

I was wondering if anyone has crono'ed the stuff for similar loads?

I found the loading Data in a Lyman loading manual, the manual that IMR puts out know calls only for their Trail Boss for CA loading.

I do not have a lot of luck firing the lower, volum powder, even though a lot of manufactuer's claim their powder is not positional, I do get a lot of unburned powder using the less than full case loads in the 5 to 6 grain catagory for the 44 mag loads, 

I was wondering if there would be much blowback using my 92 winny, or my new 66 cabine using this powder. 

Any information or experience with this powder would be greatly appreciated.

I have tried several loads using 4 or 5 different kinds of the new heathen smokeless, and the best luck I have had to date is using Bullseye from Alliant, but that stuff is sure fast burning, and low volumn (Very High gas pressures).    It does seem to be truely non-positional but there is a lot of air space in the bullet cassing.   

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Do you have Stan Waters' PET LOADS?  He has some 4227 loads in the .44's and ,I believe .38 XLC (.357).  I have no personal experience in pistol or carbine

I used it in my 32-40 Schuetzen conversion of a Ruger #3.   4227 was the standard powder when I played that game.

[Lars]

I used 4227 in heavy loads in 44-40 and 45 Colt years ago. The were quite clean burning and gave as good groups as any other loads from my guns. HOWEVER, these loads exceeded the velocity limits for WAS. Downloaded to WAS requirements, was something I was not interested in  and for which I would not recommend 4227. For WAS I use medium burn rate shotgun powders, like Green Dot, IMR SR7625, Unique, Universal Clays, etc.

ANY powder is going to be position sensitive and burn dirty when too little of it is used for the case volume and bullet weight. Most (nearly all?) WAS nitro loads fall into this category. To get decent performance one needs to use enough powder to get chamber pressures up to about 10.000 psi, even higher, sometimes much higher, for some powders. Remember, cartridges like 44 Mag were designed to operate at 30.000+++ psi. Even the 44 Special has SAAMI max chamber pressure of something like 14.000 psi.

Lars

[Hell-Er High Water]

I use it in 56-50 Spencer with a 340 grain bullet with good results.  A suitable charge, 23.5 grains, just about fills the case to the base of the bullet.  This is the only caliber that I use it in, but I found the info below.

One of my older Lyman loading handbooks, No. 45 from 1970. lists this powder for use in the 357 Mag.  With a 121 grain cast bullet they list a starting load of 9.5 grains @ 606 fps and a maximum load of 15.5 grains @ 1198 fps.  With a 150 grain cast bullet they list a starting load of 9.5 grains @ 657 fps and a maximum load of 15.5 grains @ 1230 fps.  This is not a mistake in my reading or typing, they list the heavier bullet, with the same charges, as being faster.  Loads listed were shot with Remington No. 5-1/2  small pistol primers (which I think are magnum primers), in Remington cases and from a 5" barreled S&W model 27.

From this data, it looks like your load of 10.0 grains is on the safe side with both bullet weights.

This is the only info that I could find in my reference material.  Hope it helps.

HHW

[Guage Rod]

Thanks to all who replied here so far, Say Hell- Er-HW, thanks for the tidbits on your 56-50, and the other technical loading data,

I also got the load data Im using on the 357. from Lyman.  My manuals was from the Mid 1980's

I kind of liked the fact that the powder volum was fairly hign with the 4227 powder.  I wanted to find more of the Trail Boss powder from IMR but the folks at Gander Mountain don't Carry it here. 

The Lyman loadiing manual I have in my library is one of my favorite fall back loading manuals.  I have only been loading for about 3 season but it has been a good companion so far. 

I am thinking about shooting some long range Buffalo shooting this year and was wondering if my Trusty Lyman manual would have loads for 45-70 in the heathen smokeless.  I think I will check it out tonight if I get a chance. 

They just opened the Range up this year for a seperate class for smokeless.  Might kind of go against tradition but I like the notion of foregoing the blow tube and having to worry about finding slugs for the BP, since I do not ever seem to have time to even practice shooting the long gun, let alone do all the finessing that a Soot Lord needs to clean their guns, keep them from fouling, and extra care for spent shells

I' not opposed to shooting the real gun powder, just not able to take the time to do the Job rigtht.  I realy admire those that do it and do it well.  I may get there some day, but I have to guns in 45-70 that have less than 100 rounds through them and I feel bad that I have not spent more time putting them through their paces.  Neither one of them set me back a big wad.  They were trade ups from guns I had that I was not using. 

I kind of drifted off the trail here.  If anyone else Has insight about the heathen 4227 please let me know.   

Vaya Con Dios,Amigos! 

[44caliberkid]

I've only used it in .357 magnum (15 gr.) and 44 Magnum (24 gr.) and those are some rip snortin' loads.  I'd say better go with a medium burn rate pistol powder.  You might give Blue Dot or AA#6, or Unique a try, they would give a little more bulk but hardly case filling.  Got to go to the Holy Black for that.

[Ol Gabe]

Un hunh...
You realize of course that if you shoot Smokeless at Ackley you get put at the end of the relay on the DOWNWIND side so that you can savor all the intricasies of the fragrant Holy Black and its wonderous qualities of inimitable odiferousness? Hmmm? However, you do get to yell at us a lot more than the others about not seeing the target so it kinda evens itself out, HAH!
Hope to see you on the Firing Line this year at Ackley!
'Ol Gabe
P.S. Your first lunch there is on me, just make sure you introduce yourself at the Posse meeting so I know who I'm buying for!

[Sam Perfye]

Guage Rod, I won a pound of 4227 a couple of years back along with IMR's loading manual. Tried a mid-range load in 44-40 and wasn't very happy. Lots of unburnt powder and only so-so accuracy. After that I kinda gave up on it, went to the Holy Black and haven't looked back. Smoke &flames is just to cool. Hope this helps. Al

[Chantilly]

We load 125 gr truncated cone - 3.2 Titegroup with magnum primers in the pistol.  Titegroup gives you a good consistent burn, pretty darn clean and seems to be a bit less position sensitive.  The load is also very accurate.  The load chronos at about 800.  Yes... a bit gamer but not bad and less wearing on the weapons with as much shooting as we do.  We used to load with Unique but found that it does not burn as well in .38 with 125 gr bullet nor is it as accurate as the Titegroup. 

(Little Chantilly note - besides, the Titegroup has a bit of sparkle to it.    ) 

Shoot'n Newton and Chantilly 

[Guage Rod]

My hat is off to all who replied about shooting 4227, I will shoot up the Powder I have and Get to posting my comments.  I know there are as many loads out there as there are loaders practicly.  I have tried the following powders with mixed results (All go boom and stuff)
Universal clays, International clays, Bullseye (cleanest burning and least positional but very hot), Pirodex (no thanks) Tripple 7 (I like), APP (hard on the brass and hard to get totaly out of the gun with out lots of hot, soapy water, (I have put guns in the Auto dishwasher when my wife is not around).

I have about 250 loads of 44 mag in the Trail boss I have yet to try and about the same in 357 in the 4227, If the weather co-operates I will be out there this Saturday shooting some steel. 

If these two powders do not work out I will try some of the loads others recommended.  I did try filler with most of the loads (Caulking backer rod, foam) but did not feel comfortable with the little soot balls.

Thanks everyone for your help and advice. 

Vaya Con Dios, Amigos