Opinions on further Wild Bunch Rule Changes

[Doc Holloman]

So, the word from Land Run is that the Territorial Governors are discussing what rule changes should be made to fine tune the revamped Wild Bunch program, with changes to be voted on and implemented next year (if I have that wrong, feel free to correct me.)

For those of us not able to attend Land Run (I personally, cannot travel due to family medical issues) and do not have easy access to a Wild Bunch TG, I'd like to throw out a couple of questions to hopefully a decent cross section of WB shooters.  To do this, I am posting this on three different forums (fora?)
 
(Note:  I will post my own answers, but as separate posts from the questions.)

First:  What do you think makes Wild Bunch different from Cowboy shooting and that needs to be preserved? (What, if lost, would spoil Wild Bunch for you?  What elements or characteristics constitute the essence of Wild Bunch to you?   What would you tell the folks looking at the rules 'Don't touch this!'?)

Second:  What Rule changes would you like to see made?

Hopefully we can get some useful response  that might come to the attention of the powers that be.

[Doc Holloman]

First question (What is important to me in Wild Bunch?)
1. MOVEMENT! Multiple target arrays for pistol. Multiple reloads. Pistol arrays at different distances within a stage. Movement with the shotgun.
2. Variety. Target arrays that are not just straight lines shot in predicable sweeps. Geometric patterns (Ts, Ls, Xs, Y, Chevrons). Different round counts from stage to stage. Some stages no rifle, some no shotgun. Some stages putting a premium on pistol marksmanship, some placing the emphasis on quick mag changes.
3. Difficulty: WB should be more difficult than CAS. With CAS clubs setting a standard that ¼ or 1/3 of shooters should be shooting clean matches, I don't think we don't want Wild Bunch devolving into that with (24x24 targets at 4 yards.)
Second question: (Rule changes I would like to see)
1, Allow 20 gauge Model 12 shotguns (as we now allow 20 gauge side by sides – the 97 was never made in 20 gauge)
2. In the Modern Class, allow rubber magazine baseplate bumpers. I don't see a competitive advantage and allows more people to use what they have.
3, Eliminate the max weight for the Modern class 1911. A lot of off the shelf pistols are an ounce or two over the limit and the other restrictions should still keep the race guns out.
4. Allow GI style shoulder holsters. True to the movie, Sholder holsters are allowed in Cowboy, and the 170- rule would still apply. Actually probably safer than in Cowboy because of the need to rack the slide on the 1911.
5. In BAMM, allow 1945 or earlier rifles that have been rechambered by a military to a different caliber. This would allow Norwegian or South American Mausers rechambered to .30-06, Indian Enfields rechambered to 7.62 or Israeli Mausers rechambered to 7.62. Of course, lead bullets would still be required.

[Abilene]

Well, there's not a lot of folks on here that shoot SASS Wild Bunch.  I don't have too many opinions on it, but I was unhappy when they let the .38 race-guns in.  That threw out the power factor for rifle, and also made my .45 '73 essentially obsolete.  I have plenty of other rifles for CAS, and it would be hard to sell because there is now a glut of similarly no-longer-needed .45 rifles on the market.  So I wish they would either put the .38's and such in an Open category, and don't allow the Open category to win Overall.  Or, only allow them in Modern category.  Since I shoot Traditional, at least it wouldn't affect me.  But since they already let that cat loose, they ain't getting it back in the bag.

I haven't shot a WB match in a year, due to being almost out of .45acp and needing to get set to reload it in a new location on a new (very old 550) machine.  Had some major problems with it but have some loaded now so hopefully I can get back to it some.  Bigger problem these days is lack of time, and hard to do 2 matches in a weekend.  But it's nice that there's still some opportunity to do so around these parts.

[Coffinmaker]

  GROAN

Ok.  I'm still the "Spoil Sport."  I was there when Wild Bunch was still the original Side Match, where we could shot 1917 Revolvers, Broomhandles, Lugers and all sorts of safe queens we never got to play with.  This was before SASS got hold of Wild Bunch and legislated the real fun out of it.  I haven't played since that fateful EOT when SASS killed Wild Bunch.  Turned it into CAS with a 1911.  It took years to get away from loading magazines with five rounds only.  SASS/WB will never really "FIX" Wild Bunch.

[Major 2]

No dog in the fight, WB never took off here locally.
Maybe 6-7 initially gave it a go, I myself had the guns.
 But after just a handful of matches, it regulated back to a stage within a CAS match.
WB may well be a thing elsewhere in Florida, but not at CFRPR and I have not shot SASS in years.

I did like the rules change allowing Bolt guns though.     

[DeaconKC]

Okay, as someone who hopes WB takes off and would love to see even ZOOT Shooting added later, here's my .02.
1. Glad to see .38 rifles allowed BUT add a Power Factor minimum to eliminate Mouse Phart loads.
2.Allow other handguns beside the 1911. I love the 1911, but would also like to shoot my Luger, Broomhandle, etc.
3. Movement is good, even for cripples like me.
4. Allow the factory modified BAMM rifles as listed above.
5. Keep the targets tougher to hit.

[pony express]

1, Allow 20 gauge Model 12 shotguns (as we now allow 20 gauge side by sides – the 97 was never made in 20 gauge)

There were a lot of '97s and model 12s made in 16guage. Never understood why I couldn't use my grandpa's Mod 12 just because it isn't the approved guage.

[Coffinmaker]

OK.  So let's bring back the period Revolvers (1917s anyone), Lugers, Broomhadles and other safe queens.  Shotgun optional. 

Rifles of 38 caliber (Real 38, like 38-40) and better.

Shotguns Optional.

Bringing the FUN back.

[Major 2]

yeah, what Coffinmaker said... and +2 Shotguns Optional.

[Abilene]

That's not Wild Bunch.

It's Cool Bunch. 

[Major 2]

Yes Sir, I have to agree....

There is one point that has perplexed me concerning Wild Bunch 

It is not a secret the Star model B, stood in for the 1911 in the film.
  The reason was 9mm blanks were reliable and readily available.

So, if the discipline based on the film, why not allow the Star Model B ?

No dog in the fight, but why not ?   

[Cap'n Redneck]

Albeit the Star Model B was designed i 1920, it was not produced until 1924 - 1983.

Wild Bunch Action Shooting is historically linked to Pershing's 1916-17 Punitive Expedition into Northern Mexico to catch Pancho Villa.

Personally I would like to see a cut-off date on weapons-technology for Wild Bunch that is either "Nov. 11th. 1918" (the end of WW1) or "Dec. 1st. 1920" (end of Mexican Revolution).

I would like to see an official "Wild Bunch Pocket Pistol (sidematch) category", to embrace the Colt 1903 Automatic in .32 ACP, among others...

[Major 2]

I'm not advocating for the Stars inclusion, just pointing out that "if" Wild Bunch category is rooted from Peckinpah's film, The Star Model B stood in as the hero piece.

"IF" from a historical aspect then no.


  https://www.imfdb.org/wiki/The_Wild_Bunch#Springfield_M1903A3

[Coffinmaker]

Wild Bunch was never conceived as re-inactment to include thread counters.  The guys that thought it up saw it as a means to get the safe queens out and play with them.  Anything sort of "period" was considered fair game.  It was REAL FUN!!  Not CAS with a 1911.  Star Model B was perfectly acceptable.

[Niederlander]

We've always allowed anything that was actually in use for our local matches.  Of course, there was never any real competition, either, just having fun.  It's kinda' neat to see Lugers, 1905 Colt Autos, etc. actually get used again.