Colt 1873 1st gen. historically correct bullet and blackpowder load ?

[blackpowder]

Hi Fellas,

Can anyone tell me what exact lead bullet type and weight, as well as powder load, was used to make the .45LC cartridge the US army was issued for the 1873 1st generation colts? On the internet I find conflicting information. Many thanks !

[Montana Slim]

The loading changed slightly over the years. Early cartridges from Frankford Arsenal (1874) contained a 250 gr lead bullet & 30 gr gunpowder, likely equivalent to today's 2F grade. Cardboard wads would be added between powder & bullet, if needed, to take up any excess space in the load. The bullet resembles a round nose, except for a small flat point on the nose. This feature was likely from the bullet punch / swaging process. I haven't researched who sells an authentic mold, but don't expect the big makers to have an equivalent. If I wanted dummy rounds that look right, I'd use my 230 gr RN lead bullets - after making a flat with my small ball-peen hammer. For shooting, I'd choose one of the "big lube" designs.

Regards,
Slim

[Drydock]

I've taken down a few originals.  Use this bullet:  https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-250D1  The arsenal bullet was swaged and had a slight cup at the base, this is as close as you can get, and it carries plenty of lube for revolver use.  Powder charge between 30-35 grains,  The original powder grind seems between modern 2f and 3f in grind, and is of high quality.  I would use 3f.  The variation in charge comes from the different cases and primers used by the different arsenals/contractors, the machinery simply set to drop the powder in the case to fill to the bullet base with little to no compression.   The Army's performance target seems to have been a heavy bullet in the low 800s. That sounds familiar . . .

Civilian loads used compressed 35-40 grain loads for more power/better ad copy.  The army was more concerned with maximizing the number of rounds they could get out of a pound of powder.  This rapidly drove the move to the shorter Government case with still less powder and a lighter bullet. (this was already in the works even before the adoption of the Schofield)

FWIW the same powder grind was used in the 45-70 as well. 

[Drydock]

Addendum: if you can find an old Ideal 454190 mold, with the perfectly square lube grooves, THAT is a nearly perfect copy of the Government bullet, minus the cup base.  But for all practical purposes the Accurate is just as good.

[Drydock]

Bullet alloy was 16-1 lead-tin.

[blackpowder]

Thanks for these insights. I have a good mold that casts a 260gn RN bullet with square lube grooves and a slight flat area at the very tip. Would that be close enough for the bullet? I will try a powder charge of 35gn to maintain adequate velocities on account of the slightly heavier slug....

[Froogal]

I've taken down a few originals.  Use this bullet:  https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-250D1  The arsenal bullet was swaged and had a slight cup at the base, this is as close as you can get, and it carries plenty of lube for revolver use.  Powder charge between 30-35 grains,  The original powder grind seems between modern 2f and 3f in grind, and is of high quality.  I would use 3f.  The variation in charge comes from the different cases and primers used by the different arsenals/contractors, the machinery simply set to drop the powder in the case to fill to the bullet base with little to no compression.   The Army's performance target seems to have been a heavy bullet in the low 800s. That sounds familiar . . .

Civilian loads used compressed 35-40 grain loads for more power/better ad copy.  The army was more concerned with maximizing the number of rounds they could get out of a pound of powder.  This rapidly drove the move to the shorter Government case with still less powder and a lighter bullet. (this was already in the works even before the adoption of the Schofield)

FWIW the same powder grind was used in the 45-70 as well.

That mold appears to have TWO lube grooves, which is very good, but is there no crimp groove?

[Drydock]

Bullets were seated on the powder and crimped over the ogive to an oal of 1.6". Few bullets from this era had crimp grooves.

[Froogal]

Bullets were seated on the powder and crimped over the ogive to an oal of 1.6". Few bullets from this era had crimp grooves.

Very interesting. I'll try to wrap my head around that concept and wonder just how successful it was?

[Coffinmaker]

Well Hey There Froogal 

Considering the Hundreds of Thousands of .45 Cartridges loaded for the Military and Civilian use, I'd call the load pretty successful.  Crimping the case into the Ogive of a soft swaged lead bullet would be just as effective as a Cast bullet with Crimp Groove.

We also often forget, back in the day, NOBODY was chambering rifles for 45 Colt.  Wasn't even a thought for the Rifle makers.  Black Powder doesn't actually require compression for ignition.  Just need to eliminate any airspace inna suppository.

[Froogal]

Well Hey There Froogal 

Considering the Hundreds of Thousands of .45 Cartridges loaded for the Military and Civilian use, I'd call the load pretty successful.  Crimping the case into the Ogive of a soft swaged lead bullet would be just as effective as a Cast bullet with Crimp Groove.

We also often forget, back in the day, NOBODY was chambering rifles for 45 Colt.  Wasn't even a thought for the Rifle makers.  Black Powder doesn't actually require compression for ignition.  Just need to eliminate any airspace inna suppository.

Thank you!! Food for thought right there. I'm a relative new comer to this sport and I am still learning. I have .45 Colt black powder loads that work quite well in the revolver, but tend to foul up the bore of the rifle sooner than I like. Pretty sure I need bullets that carry a bit more lube.

Why can I find a mold for .429, 200 grain bullets with TWO lube grooves, but cannot find a 200 grain, .452 bullet with 2 lube grooves?

[Drydock]

Because the larger diameter .45 does not have enough shank to support 2 decent grooves.  FWIW in my Schofield loads I use this bullet: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-220R  and say in the notes to not cut the heel.  Works great and leaves a nice greasy muzzle in all my 45s. 

You have to remember as diameter goes up, length goes down for the same weight.  the 200 grain 44 is about the same length as the 250 grain 45. 

For rifle this one has a VERY good reputation.  http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-251C

This one is a bit lighter, and would be a good rifle/pistol bullet. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-230S

It really is not the number of grooves that is important, but the amount of lube that is carried.  One good sized groove works fine.

[Drydock]

I would also point out that in the big single shots, bullets have no crimp grooves, are often seated on the powder/wad combo with minimal to no case tension, not crimped, and fired to great accuracy well past 1000 yards.  Black powder is just a different animal.

[Froogal]

I would also point out that in the big single shots, bullets have no crimp grooves, are often seated on the powder/wad combo with minimal to no case tension, not crimped, and fired to great accuracy well past 1000 yards.  Black powder is just a different animal.

But with a single shot, the recoil will not unseat the other cartridges in the magazine, because there are no other cartridges.

[Drydock]

Thus in a repeating arm you do indeed crimp over the ogive.  But it does show that accuracy wise, with BP a crimp makes little difference.

[Coal Creek Griff]

This one is a bit lighter, and would be a good rifle/pistol bullet. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-230S

That's the bullet that I designed to match the exterior appearance of an original .45 Smith & Wesson (Schofield) round that I have. I wanted the loaded round to look the same, but for the bullet to carry more lube. I also added a small "hidden" crimp groove to help when loading smokeless powder since Uberti Schofields often don't work well with BP. The bullet has worked well in my revolvers.

Griff

[blackpowder]

what was the most commonly used bullet weight? 250gn, 255gn or 260gn? I think all three were used with this cartridge at one time or another by the US army.

[Drydock]

The milspec bullet in the Colt case was the cup base 250 grain swaged rnfp. That's it. Other weights were civilian loadings. 

[Dave T]

My amature research into civilian loadings of the 45 Colt cartridge indicated Rem-UMC loaded a 250g RNFP over the original charge of 40g of black powder, while Winchester loaded a 255g RNFP over 38g of BP. I could not find an explanation for the 2g drop in powder charge other than guessing that the savings from loading 2g less powder might have added up to some serious money over a couple years. This was in the 1880s time frame.

Elmer Keith claimed in one of his books that the 250/40g load from Rem-UMC was still available after the tiurn of the Century. Also, the original load developed by Ordinance was 40g behind a 255g bullet. By 1874 that was reduced to 30g of powder under a 250g bullet. And so the castration of the military 45 Colt began and didn't end until everyone was shooting what amounted to the 45 S&W - 28g of powder under a 230g projectile.

I've seen a lot of other claims by a lot of other people but the above is what bubbled to the surface for me.  YMMV!

Dave