ASM Richards Type I

[Graveyard Jack]

Well, sort of. I thought it was a factory job but it isn't. It's a gateless conversion of a CVA 1861 Navy to .38 Long Colt proper. The interesting part is that it is a Type I conversion with the floating firing pin and rear sight on the conversion ring. Which was never done on the 1861 historically. It needs some work. The barrel/cylinder gap is wider than a credit card, the hammer overtravels, the timing is off and sometimes it doesn't function at all without help. The ejector doesn't even line up with the chambers, so apparently it's just there for decoration. I'd say it wasn't worth the $400 I paid for it but it is an interesting example. Any idea who might've built it? I've never seen a Type I other than the factory ASM conversions and those by the likes of Millington/Howell. Let alone one without a loading gate.





You can see where the dovetail slot was filled.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello CraigC,

That looks like a Legal Defender Kit with a turned Percussion Cylinder.
Or possibly a Home Build. There are plans out there for the Anvil Enterprise Conversion.
What's the Bore?

AntiqueSledMan.

[Coffinmaker]

  CraigC 

I admit to being stumped.  It's not something I have seen before other than Tin Types of similar 19th century conversions of things other than an 1861.

Based on Antique Sled Man's Tin Types, I'd be inclined to agree with it being built on  a Legal Defender Kit.  The conversion ring looks right for it.

It may well be an interesting Winter Project to get it to functionality.  An expensive Winter Project.

[Graveyard Jack]

Thanks, that is exactly what it looks like! Can't believe I've never heard of them before.

It has the percussion bore so heeled bullets. I may try some hollow base wadcutters but I ain't messin' with heeled bullets. The ejector looks like a Richards-Mason, which would explain why it doesn't work. It's interesting, to say the least. 

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Craig,

Please post your results with those HBWC's.
Might work with Soft Lead & Black Powder.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Major 2]

Craig, it appears you've jumped into the deep end with both feet. 
It will be fun to see this one rise from its ashes. I'm looking forward to the posts.

CVA imported percussion revolvers and their kits in the mid 80's.
They had a line of Spanish made muzzleloaders (pistols & rifles).
But I believe the revolver line were exclusively Italy, Probably ASM or Uberti possibly DDG.
Does it have a date code [ A -something) or perhaps [roman numerals]?
The legal defender connection appears correct also.

Years ago, I bought some heeled bullets from Gad Custom Bullets (more like EGAD!)
casting was something else with Dia. all over the place .379 to .392 (all had to be sized)
some were unusable (heat wrinkled) and poor casting.
But I did manage to load some, all that effort made HBW's more user frendly.

Still, heel based has its pluses, you might want to give them a second thought, (not EGAD's though)
try Springfield Slim. 

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Still, heel based has its pluses, you might want to give them a second thought, (not EGAD's though)
try Springfield Slim. 

Here's his contact information. http://www.whyteleatherworks.com

[Coffinmaker]

  Antique Sled Man 

Sorry, I ain't CraigC and haven't been in a Holiday Inn Express (that I admit to), but I have done several conversions on Pietta 1851 Platforms.  I admit I am just two dam'd lazy to piddle with "Heel Bullets."  I have shot all of my converted .36s with .375 bore, with swaged Hollow Base Wadcutters.  To 15 or so yards I have gotten acceptable accuracy (minute of Tea Saucer).

I have from time to time toyed with the idea of through boring  cylinders to eliminate the throats and then running 375-380 Heel'd Bullets, but then I recovered with no lasting ill effects.  Not my cuppa tea (shot the saucer, remember).

People are Still Contagious.  Avoid 'Em

[Black River Smith]

The ejector looks like a Richards-Mason, which would explain why it doesn't work. It's interesting, to say the least. 

To explain the reason for what you are observing with the ejector rod and cylinder is as follows.  The cylinder in that pistol is the original percussion cylinder 'bored out'.  That means that the rachets teeth are 'still' positioned in the center of the chambers.  The original percussion cylinder when rotated aligned the chamber, perfectly with the center line of the arbor, for loading and capping.  When you convert a pistol and add the ejector it attaches to the upper line of the arbor (leading to your observed not Working).  Colt 'manufactured original conversions' had perfect stoppage alignment by moved the rachet teeth between the cylinder chambers and adding a double paw hand.  This new cutting also allowed them to control the thickness of the rachet teeth to hand contact.  (As you can see the rachet teeth are thinned out on your cylinder (thereby less contact between teeth and hand).  You will also find that the hand in your gun is the original percussion 'one paw' hand.

This cylinder was well cut by a mill, not handheld tools.  It is not a new made cylinder (because it still has the rolled battle scene) and IMO should only have BP blackpowder cartridges used in it.

What 'You' must do for this setup is to slowly rotate the cylinder to the right but 'do not let it drop off the hand into its' normal loading percussion position'.  When loading and unloading this pistol, you slowly rotate the cylinder, holding it in its' high position, then the ejector will easily eject the spent casings and new cartridge with slide in.

Hope this helps you.

BRS

[Graveyard Jack]

To explain the reason for what you are observing with the ejector rod and cylinder is as follows.  The cylinder in that pistol is the original percussion cylinder 'bored out'.  That means that the rachets teeth are 'still' positioned in the center of the chambers.  The original percussion cylinder when rotated aligned the chamber, perfectly with the center line of the arbor, for loading and capping.  When you convert a pistol and add the ejector it attaches to the upper line of the arbor (leading to your observed not Working).  Colt 'manufactured original conversions' had perfect stoppage alignment by moved the rachet teeth between the cylinder chambers and adding a double paw hand.  This new cutting also allowed them to control the thickness of the rachet teeth to hand contact.  (As you can see the rachet teeth are thinned out on your cylinder (thereby less contact between teeth and hand).  You will also find that the hand in your gun is the original percussion 'one paw' hand.

This cylinder was well cut by a mill, not handheld tools.  It is not a new made cylinder (because it still has the rolled battle scene) and IMO should only have BP blackpowder cartridges used in it.

What 'You' must do for this setup is to slowly rotate the cylinder to the right but 'do not let it drop off the hand into its' normal loading percussion position'.  When loading and unloading this pistol, you slowly rotate the cylinder, holding it in its' high position, then the ejector will easily eject the spent casings and new cartridge with slide in.

Hope this helps you.

BRS

It's not an issue of timing. The ejector and loading port simply do not line up at all. If the chamber is aligned with the ejector, cartridges cannot pass through the loading port. If the chamber is aligned with the loading port, the ejector cannot enter. This conversion ring was not designed to operate with that ejector, if any at all.

[Graveyard Jack]

Craig, it appears you've jumped into the deep end with both feet. 
It will be fun to see this one rise from its ashes. I'm looking forward to the posts.

CVA imported percussion revolvers and their kits in the mid 80's.
They had a line of Spanish made muzzleloaders (pistols & rifles).
But I believe the revolver line were exclusively Italy, Probably ASM or Uberti possibly DDG.
Does it have a date code [ A -something) or perhaps [roman numerals]?
The legal defender connection appears correct also.

Years ago, I bought some heeled bullets from Gad Custom Bullets (more like EGAD!)
casting was something else with Dia. all over the place .379 to .392 (all had to be sized)
some were unusable (heat wrinkled) and poor casting.
But I did manage to load some, all that effort made HBW's more user frendly.

Still, heel based has its pluses, you might want to give them a second thought, (not EGAD's though)
try Springfield Slim. 

More like "stepped in it" with both feet with this one! 

I do like that this sixgun is closer to the size and weight of the original Colts, not just an 1860 with smaller holes but it may prove to be more trouble than it's worth. The barrel/cylinder gap is a major issue and I don't see an easy solution. It's literally the width of a case rim or more. I may see if the cylinder out of my Howell will fit, or maybe go so far as to order a Kirst cylinder just to see if it fits. I don't see any thing but a new cylinder correcting that problem. If it weren't for that, I may give heeled bullets a shot, at least on a limited basis.

Until I figure something out, I have this one to shoot .38Colt out of but it still needs a taller front sight. It's the Howell with the relined barrel.

[Abilene]

CraigC, depending on how far off the ejector rod is, would it be possible to shave it down on one side, like the smaller calber SAA's do?

[Graveyard Jack]

CraigC, depending on how far off the ejector rod is, would it be possible to shave it down on one side, like the smaller calber SAA's do?

I'll have to look at it again to see if that's possible. Seems like it was off by quite a bit.

[Coffinmaker]

Just my random thinking.  Were I stuck with it, I'd first source up some Pietta Lock Work parts to see if I could get it functional.  Or even try some Uberti lock works.  If I got it functional, I'd pull that Ejector Assembly and put it someplace safe for future reference and just use a "rod" to punch out cases.

Failing all that, I'd source up a nice "Shadow" box and make it a wall display.  I'd expect hunting down the seller and beating 'em over the head with it would be considered a major no no.  Oh well.

I'd still be shooting it with Hollow Base Wadcutters.  Going to Short Colt with Heeled bullets just seems like way too much work and expense for way too little gain.

 

[Graveyard Jack]

I can live with the ejector issue and I will try it with wadcutters to see how it does. I think the biggest issue is the barrel/cylinder gap and I don't see a solution possible for that. I guess I can shoot it with wadcutters and chronograph it to see just how bad it is.

I sent the seller a message to see if they'll do something.

[StrawHat]

Craig,

Any update?

Kevin

[Graveyard Jack]

Craig,

Any update?

Kevin

Not really. I'll probably get some hollow base wadcutters to try but I doubt I'll want to spend any money on it. I don't see any way to correct the broad barrel/cylinder gap without spending way more than it's worth.

[45 Dragoon]

The recoil shield cut out looks familiar to me .  .  .
What about a Pietta cyl for the endshake? ( they're  longer) I put Pietta cylinders in all my conversions for that reason.

Mike

[Graveyard Jack]

I don't know, if the hollow base wadcutters shoot decent I might consider it. I'd probably just rather get the Uberti London version and start all over.