Researching Photographs

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

It does indeed. I just looked it up on Dixie and the hammer and trigger look the same.


And no, Del, I didn't realize until you pointed it out that the picture was reversed.  I'm not sure how that happened...probably when my uncle scanned it.  Funny how one can miss the obvious...

[Delmonico]

Most likely it was a tintype, most are reversed, the way the buttons button is the give away to it.  I always check that first.

Now for some more fun here, turn to page 105 in The West AIH and look at the photo of the Mormans, said to have been taken in the 1860's and see what you think, there are several clues that make me think it was taken later.  Let me know what you think and post it if you don't mind.  I hope to get more computor knowledge and a better one in the near future.

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

I'll crank up the scanner in a bit, but first, my novice impressions (all of the following are off-the-cuff guesses):

The fellow in the center, standing between the girls, has a hat that looks like a "Montana Peak" style.  And he appears to be wearing a belt with a belt-loop showing.  Both of those were created much later than the 60's.  The man on the wagon is wearing glasses that may be a later style.  And the boys have on overalls.  I believe those were later, too.

The things that would suggest 60's to me are the ladies' bonnets, the straw hat on the man in the wagon (I've seen those in Civil War photographs), and the nature of the picture itself.

Okay, now tell me what I missed or mistook...

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Here's the photo.

http://www.dorseyfoto.com/mormons.jpg

Closeup
http://www.dorseyfoto.com/mormonsclose.jpg

This photo seems to be a much faster process than the long exposure techniques that were necessary in the 1860's.

[Delmonico]

Now you are learning to find the details before you take the caption to heart.  Add the flag type banndana around the guy with the belts neck.  There was hard feelings between the Mormans and the US Govt during the migration, that's why they left.  Also check out the ox yoke, it looks very weathered, along with the handcart.  The left rear hub of the wagon has a large crack in it.  Not alsways fatal but something that was not desirable, the tree together makes me think all three items were taken out of storage.

In the 1860's where did a photographer appear "on the trail" and where "on the trail was a large grove of hardwood trees and if one looks, there is something like a picnic going on in the grove.

Most of the items could be, but for that many items of later design plus the fact the wagon and handcart appear old makes me think later photo, ren-actment for some reason.


Some things I find in photo's drive me nuts, one I found recently in in the Solomon Butcher Collection.  Go to the collection and type crossbow into the search and you get the print and the negative.  On either look on the roof of the soddy. 

I have no idea why. But it is there and my friend John Carter also noticed it.  One must remember Soloon Butcher did put items he wanted seen to preserve history in the backgrounds of his pictures.  But a crossbow, not a lot of record of those being used by homesteaders.

[litl rooster]

I'll crank up the scanner in a bit, but first, my novice impressions (all of the following are off-the-cuff guesses):

The fellow in the center, standing between the girls, has a hat that looks like a "Montana Peak" style.  And he appears to be wearing a belt with a belt-loop showing.  Both of those were created much later than the 60's.  The man on the wagon is wearing glasses that may be a later style.  And the boys have on overalls.  I believe those were later, too.

The things that would suggest 60's to me are the ladies' bonnets, the straw hat on the man in the wagon (I've seen those in Civil War photographs), and the nature of the picture itself.

Okay, now tell me what I missed or mistook...

That is not a Montana Peak it's what modern hat makers call a Russel, but more a Ranger Peak

[Delmonico]

An off the cuff guess is often all that anyone can give, despite the amount of degrees that they have hanging on their walls.  Although a PHD in history can be a wonderful thig to own, esp. if one is looking for a job, it is also only as good as your knowledge of the more common things in life.  The title I use, Mongrel Historian was given to me by a friend who is perhaps one of the foremost historians as far as saddle and tack of the period.

I'm going to give you another one that Ithik is interesting.  Type steam traction engine and bridge into the search on the Solomon Butcher collection.  It shows up with the title Threshing Machine goes through a bridge.  Interesting picture, I have it as backgroung on my screen at home.  It helps me remember others have bad days also.  AAA anyone?

My 75 year old father likes farm equipt so I showed him this on one day.  He looked at it and commented that the engine must have been shut down and being pulled.  The reason is simple, if it had been under it's own power it would not be in one piece, that is the worst angle for a steam engine under steam.

It seems that a Great-Great Uncle of mine fell through an almost identical bridge in the WWI era.  Parts were found near a half mile away and he was buried in the cematary about a mile and a half away.

Looking at the picture it makes sense as to why it was being pulled.  By the dress of the men it was most likely very cold out.  The threshing machine was used mostly for oats and wheat around here and most wheat was threshed in early summer and oats in late summer or sometimes they were planted in the wheat field after harvest and threshed in the fall fall, before the corn was picked.

Now looking at the fact is might be around zero out,(note the gloves, fur lined hats and heavy coats) the engine would have been drained to prevent cracking the boiler.  Firing it up would have been a tricky job in the cold, one could not just pour water in and fire it, because it would freeze.  firing it a bit and slowly adding water would have been the only way and would still being a bit tricky to keep things in balance.  Also even in the best weather it is a 3-4 hour job to bring one of these up to full steam from dead cold.

It would be easier and quicker to hitch up 3-4 teams of mules or horses to move it to somewhere else.

After reading this one might wonder how they kept trains running in this era, that is simple, they never let the go cold except for repairs.  When they were finished with them for the day, something that happened a lot one short local runs, the fire was banked in the firebox to keep things hot, but not up to full power.  One these old railroads, the fireman was expected to show up at work about two hours before the engineer.  His job would be to fill the boiler full, rake out the banked fire and build up the steam before the scedualed days run.

This is not hard with a coal or wood burning engine.

On our steam traction engine this could be more work because to save money many of them burned straw at threshing time, it was there and it was free so they used it.  This does not bank well so someone would be required to feed the firebox all night long so the engine was ready in the morning at first light.

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

That's an interesting photo--it sure tells a story.  I think this will link to a big copy (large file--dialup beware) http://memory.loc.gov/award/nbhips/lca/140/14081v.jpg

I wonder about all the drive belts on the left.  I don't think they fell off the wheels as a result of the accident.  This might support your analysis that the thresher wasn't under power and was merely being moved.

I wonder who was the luckless soul that tried to roll it across the bridge?  The two men on either siade are smiling...probably trying to suppress their laughter.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

JD & Del, VERY interesting!  

Nobody mentioned this, but it may support your theory, JD, 'bout the date of the picture of the family in the wagon.  Didja notice the fellow sittin' in the wagon with the dark shirt an' suspenders?  It sure looks like the late, great John Lennon to me!

Sorry, I couldn't resist!

[blue drifter]

J.D.and DEL.

  that was real good reading. thank you, and the pictures were great. I think Del and JD should have their own subject topic, what the hell everybody else wants one, you know, hay Marshal, when are you going to put one up about mowing your lawn, or hay Marshal, when are you going to put one up for chicken training? or 1864 1/2 ball-room dancing?     

just kidding, JD & Del that was great, I really enjoyed it, happy new year to you guys and your families

[Chantilly]

Great thread!  Thanks for the info.

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

John Lennon!  I knew this photo was a fake!!

Thanks to everyone for the kind words!  I hope your New Year is the best one ever. 

Here's a photo of me an a friend celebrating Christmas.  My missus seemed to be lacking in holiday spirit and good cheer....

http://www.dorseyfoto.com/bseries-small.jpg

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Truly a great thread, pards. I enjoyed following it and learning from you. Many Thanks.

[Four-Eyed Buck]

She does seem a little grumpy there, J.D. Period for the photo?.....Buck

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

I'm guessing that it's 1860's.  The clothes and the man's mutton chops fit that period, I believe.  I'm not an expert, though.  I love posting these and finding out more from Del and everyone.

This image is on a stereograph.  You should see it in my stereo optican--it looks great in 3d!

[Delmonico]

I've seen that picture before, comes out of the W.C.T.U. if I remember right.