.50-70 cases sticking in the chamber

[U.S.M.R.]

We've all heard of the problems of copper.45-70 cases sticking in the chambers of trapdoors. I've wondered if this happened with.50-70s. I've never come across any mention of it or headless shell extractors.

[Drydock]

Nope, never heard of any.  Then again, the issue of cartridges "Sticking" in chambers was wildly overblown in the 45-70, almost exclusively in relation to Little Big Horn, in an attempt by the Army to blame its poor performance on a technical issue.

[Arizona Trooper]

There was a lot of copper cased ammo before the early 45-70s that didn't seem to have that problem, Spencer 56-56 & 56-50, 58 RF, Joslyn/Peabody 50-60, 50-70, 50 Carbine/Cadet, etc. etc. I suspect that 45-70 being longer was more susceptible to extraction problems, but the main issue was verdigris and dirt from being carried in leather Fair Weather Christian belts made by company saddlers. The other issue is that unlike a Sharps, Rolling Block or most of the early single shots, with a Trapdoor you can really crank down the brechblock and chamber a round that would never seat otherwise, and once fired it is truly stuck in there.   

[Arizona Trooper]

Forgot.... 50-70s did stick in Springfield M-1866 musket conversions. That's one of the reasons the M-1868 replaced it.

[Dave T]

Forgot.... 50-70s did stick in Springfield M-1866 musket conversions. That's one of the reasons the M-1868 replaced it.

Had not heard that before.  Thanks for the info!

Dave

[Trailrider]

Forgot.... 50-70s did stick in Springfield M-1866 musket conversions. That's one of the reasons the M-1868 replaced it.

Was there a specific battle where '66's were used, where this situation was encountered? Perhaps the Hayfield Fight or the Wagon Box Fight? IIRC, at both of those fights, the troops had rifles, that had ramrods, rather than carbines that didn't.  As the 66 conversions had the barrels lined and the chambers cut into the liner, I wonder if the '68's didn't have somewhat larger chamber dimensions.

[Drydock]

Problem was that the 66 has very weak extraction.  Hard to say if the case or the gun would be the problem. 

[Niederlander]

There was an article (that I can't find right now) years ago, that mentioned in the wagon box fight "the poorer shots" were detailed to load rifles.  The article pointed out that anyone who's ever shot a Trapdoor knows you can reload one yourself faster than you can exchange one with someone else.  The author felt, and I agree, it's more likely the shooters handed rifles off that had a stuck case for the "poorer shots" to clear with a ramrod.  The officer in charge at the Wagon Box fight was Lieutenant Powell, who had successfully relieved the wood train at Fort Phil Kearny (unlike Major Fetterman).  He was a good, sensible officer, that probably had learned to deal with the ejector weakness in the '66 prior to the Wagon Box fight.  Makes much more sense to me.

[38OVI]

I have also read about those two battles, and I agree with the fact that the 66's had ramrods.  The 66 block is not a real great design as opposed to the 68 & 70 Models of the 50-70, which also had ramrods in the rifle models.