Miroku 1866 - action won't close

Muadhib · October 07, 2022, 03:29:28 PM

Hello everyone,

Hope this finds you well! Some context first, I'm a little frenchy from the other side of the atlantic (duh), and I must have paused one too many western saying how I loved 1866s that my wife decided to gift me one, the replica by Miroku in 44-40.
Cue delivery, I get some snap caps, load them into the tube, work the action and... It's stuck. It won't close all the way. Or it will, if I put so much force on it that what I gather is the extractor clips off the edge of the snap cap rim.

Here's the problem:

in video :

Now, everything firearms related is more complicated this side of the ocean, even more so when you start buying "exotic" rifles such as this one.
I don't want to send it back to the gunsmith yet (it's an internet purchase, had to scour the internet to find one in stock).

I put my thinking cap on: apparently it's no longer in production so it may have sat a long time at the gunsmith before it finally got to me. Okay, maybe the extractor piece is stuck in dried oil or something and I just need to properly service the thing.

Fair enough, I end up here (there precisely: https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=60445.0), try to find some schematics and learn as much as I can before I take it apart (thank you so much OD#3!!).
I take everything apart, get the bolt, oil it, test that the extractor moves, everything seems fine. I assemble it back. Still no luck.

I am starting to come to terms that I'll have to send it back but this is frustrating. I feel like I can fix it, I just don't know what it is because I never had it functioning. Is it the extractor? Is it suppose to be able to move more than it does? Is it something else, like the ammo not presenting the right way for the bolt to latch onto it?

If anyone knows the issue here, I would be much appreciative.

Cheers from France!

Abilene · October 07, 2022, 04:05:00 PM

I'm not sure what I'm seeing, it looks like the extractor slips off the rim when you have the action all the way open (not closed). Are these 44-40 snap caps? The brass carrier block is supposed to act as an ejector. When the cartridge is extracted and the carrier rises, the carrier acts like an ejector by kicking the empty up and out of the action. This also kicks it up out of the extractor hook. It looks to me like your snap cap is so skinny that the opening at the top of the carrier block is too wide for it and it just goes up around the dummy without kicking it up.

edit: do you have an empty piece of 44-40 brass to try?

Slamfire · October 07, 2022, 06:11:57 PM

Hey Abilene, look at how much gap there is between the rim (snap cap) and the face of the bolt

? The extractor may not be cut right, as in not back far enough toward's the face of the bolt. The extractor could be stuck and is not letting the rim ride up over the tab on the bottom of the bolt. MAG !!.

coffee's ready, Hootmix.

Coffinmaker · October 07, 2022, 06:44:56 PM

It also appears, the Snap Cap is not chambering fully. If the rifle closes up correctly when empty, I would take a hard look at the Snap Caps.

Tronicst1 · October 07, 2022, 07:45:32 PM

I don't think the bolt fully closes, if you pause and rewind the video to the beginning, it looks like the gap is still there.

Abilene · October 07, 2022, 10:33:18 PM

Okay, I looked at a bunch more. I didn't realize at first what I was looking at. I still don't know what you are saying is stuck. The video shows normal functioning. Sort of looks like a lot of headspace, though. Are you saying that when you chamber a round (at the end of your video), the extractor hook had not snapped over the rim, so that when you open the lever the bolt does not extract the round?

Slamfire · October 07, 2022, 10:47:14 PM

Looked at pic.#2, on full screen, looks like the gap is about the same as lower tab is holding the bolt open.

, another WAG !!

more coffee, Hootmix.

Abilene · October 07, 2022, 10:59:05 PM

The bolt isn't all the way closed in the second picture, or the carrier would be down. If the bolt is closed and the carrier is still up, that is another problem.

Muadhib · October 08, 2022, 05:44:34 AM

First let me say thank you for your answers, I really appreciate it!

Also and I think I should have said that from the get go, without a snap cap in, the action cycles fine. The bolt locks into place, the carrier gets back down, everything.

Quote from: Abilene on October 07, 2022, 04:05:00 PM
I'm not sure what I'm seeing, it looks like the extractor slips off the rim when you have the action all the way open (not closed). Are these 44-40 snap caps? The brass carrier block is supposed to act as an ejector. When the cartridge is extracted and the carrier rises, the carrier acts like an ejector by kicking the empty up and out of the action. This also kicks it up out of the extractor hook. It looks to me like your snap cap is so skinny that the opening at the top of the carrier block is too wide for it and it just goes up around the dummy without kicking it up.

edit: do you have an empty piece of 44-40 brass to try?

The snap caps are A zoom 44-40, I don't have an empty 44-40 at the moment, only loaded. I'll try to get one this week, thank you for the suggestion!

Quote from: Coffinmaker on October 07, 2022, 06:44:56 PM
It also appears, the Snap Cap is not chambering fully. If the rifle closes up correctly when empty, I would take a hard look at the Snap Caps.

Right, it closes fine when empty. I'll try this week with real ammunition to see if it's a snap cap issue.

Quote from: Abilene on October 07, 2022, 10:33:18 PM
Okay, I looked at a bunch more. I didn't realize at first what I was looking at. I still don't know what you are saying is stuck. The video shows normal functioning. Sort of looks like a lot of headspace, though. Are you saying that when you chamber a round (at the end of your video), the extractor hook had not snapped over the rim, so that when you open the lever the bolt does not extract the round?

At the end of the video the round is chambered but the bolt is not closed / locked, the lever is not all the way up. It locks in place fine when there is no snap cap. The picture is a still from the last second of the video showing the state of the action. At this point I can force it close if I exert a lot of pressure on the lever $:-\$ but it does not smoothly go forward anymore.

Thanks a lot for helping me troubleshoot this, I'll take it for a spin with real ammo and see if the issue is with the snap caps.

Abilene · October 08, 2022, 07:08:37 AM

That sounds a little like the extractor is just very tight, which is better than being too loose! Good luck.

major · December 02, 2022, 08:53:57 PM

I had a similar problem with a Muriko 1966 Winchester in 44-40.
The problem with my gun was there was just a little to much meat on the block that is attached to the bold. And when it mated up with the frame that extra material would make it difficult to close the bolt. I took a small amount off the block on the bolt and it now works fine. I only took a very little off the bolt block and not the frame because if I screwed it up the bolt is a lot cheaper to replace then the frame. If you want more details send me a PM and maybe we can work it out over email. Here are some picture.

Abilene · December 02, 2022, 11:01:36 PM

Quote from: major on December 02, 2022, 08:53:57 PM
I had a similar problem with a Muriko 1966 Winchester in 44-40.
The problem with my gun was there was just a little to much meat on the block that is attached to the bold. And when it mated up with the frame that extra material would make it difficult to close the bolt. I took a small amount off the block on the bolt and it now works fine. I only took a very little off the bolt block and not the frame because if I screwed it up the bolt is a lot cheaper to replace then the frame. If you want more details send me a PM and maybe we can work it out over email. Here are some picture.

Did it have that interference when unloaded or only when cycling cartridges? The original poster said it only happened with cartridges. However, he only made two posts and hasn't been back for nearly two months, so who knows?

major · December 03, 2022, 07:32:13 AM

I made one mistake in my post. The gun I was having trouble with was a 73 not a 66, but the action is similar enough to have it apply to either. IIRC The problem only seamed to manifest itself when there was a cartridge in the chamber. It has been a few years so I am not sure I remember everything about it.