M1871 Springfield Spencer - chambered in .50-45 Cadet?

[ndnchf]

Spencer
A few years ago I made a determined effort to make suitable and accurate ammunition for a Model 1871 Springfield Spencer 2 band rifle. These rifles were converted from M1865 Spencer carbines using modified M1868 Springfield trapdoor barrels. I found the chamber to be notably longer than that of typical .56-50 barrels. After a lot of careful measuring, I settled on a case length of 1.356" and an overall length of 1.680". Only later did I realize that this is very close to the case length of the 1867 .50-45 cadet rifle cartridge, also known as the .50 Cadet. This is not to be confused with the Springfield .50-55 carbine load which used the standard .50-70 brass.

The .50-45 case is listed with a length between 1.275" and 1.332". Before I knew this, I had settled on a brass length of 1.356", only .024" longer than the referenced .50-45 length of 1.332".  I settled on the 1.356" because it just covered the bands of the Rapine 350 bullet at the overall length this rifle required to cycle smoothly. But I could easily have trimmed them to the .50-45 length of 1.332" and they would work just fine.

I've done a lot of studying and thinking on this, and I think it quite likely that when Springfield armory made up the these rifles (around 1100 of them total), they chambered them for the longer .50-45 cadet cartridge rather than the standard .56-50. These rifles were made up to sell overseas . The Franco-Prussian war was raging and France needed repeating rifles. Perhaps they had a large stock of .50-45 ammunition on hand and realized it offered slightly improved performance over the .56-50.

This is just conjecture on my part, but I'm leaning towards the belief that these Model 1871 Springfield Spencer conversion rifles were in fact chambered for the .50-45 cartridge rather than the commonly believed .56-50. It sure shoots like it was designed for it.

Here are a couple photos. One shows a .56-50 case with the bullet set to the overall length this rifle needs, next to one with my brass made to work in this rifle. Quite a difference. Also a photo  found on the net of various original .50-45 cartridges.

Thanks for reading, I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Steve

[ndnchf]

Here is the rifle.

[dusty texian]

A fine job getting that old rifle shooting again ,  and shoot she does .  What are the specs. on that bullet ? Great to see you post again ndnchf ,,,,Amigo " ,,,,DT

[ndnchf]

Hi DT, good to be back. I've actually been around, just off pursuing other interests as well. I worked up this load about 4 years ago, but only recently did I start thinking about the similarity to the .50-45 cadet. Here is the old thread where my load development was chronicled.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,49533.0.html

[DJ]

I don't doubt that Springfield Armory could have used a .50-45 reamer when chambering the barrels, but were the cadet cartridges loaded as rimfires?  I thought they were all centerfire, although some could have been internally primed with Benet primers.

Also, is there some alteration to the breechblock to use a longer cartridge?  Or are you keeping to Spencer-length loads with a longer case and less bullet exposed?

Pretty rifle, by the way.  Hope to find one someday.

--DJ

[ndnchf]

DJ - very good point about the .50-45 being centerfire. I'm so used to mine having a centerfire conversion block, that I kind of forgot about that difference - doh!

That being said, it's still a bit baffling. Mine are loaded to around 1.683" plus or minus .002". An original cartridge I have measures 1.620". That makes mine .063" longer overall. I found mine to be VERY finicky about overall length. It will not tolerate a cartridge length variaton of more than .005" from what I use. So there is no way it will function with a cartridge anywhere near original length. Granted, the bullets are very different.

Looking at the original block, I see no evidence of modification to work with a longer cartridge. Perhaps you are right, the just used the longer reamers because they were on hand. By 1871 the original .56-50 reamers were worn out or scrapped. We'll probably never know the full story of these oddball rifles. But I do know that it shoot surprisingly well.

[ndnchf]

I'm resurrecting this 2 year old thread for an update. As a reminder, I had noticed the similarity between my m1871 Springfield Spencer cartridges and the Remington Rolling block .50-45 navy cadet cartridge.

Fast forward to today - I just picked up one of these .50-45 navy carbines. I was only a little surprised that my Spencer cartridges chambered just fine in the carbine. But I was more surprised how well they shot - about 1.5" at 25 yards. It shows that this little carbine has potential.

I cannot help but wonder about the similar chamber sizes between these two guns. Clearly Springfield put longer chambers in these 1871 Spencer rifles, than previous Spencers. I don't know why, but it is consistent with what Remington did for the navy carbines.

[fsrmg1]

Fantastic bit of information you have here!  I also have a Springfield M1871 Spencer Rifle pictured below.  I wanted to add to your posting, so I slugged the bore and did a chamber cast of it.  I also looked up the .50 Carbine in the 1897 Winchester Repeating Arms Catalog.  This is what I discovered. 

Winchester listed the following:
Cartridge: .50 Carbine; 400 grain projectile, 50 grains powder, 1 7/20" (1.35") case length (note that their cartridge illustration indicates only 45 grains powder, but all other references mention 50 grains).

Barrel measurements:
Length: 32 1//2"
Rifling: 1:42", three groove
Bore: 0.500"
Groove: 0.514"

Chamber cast:
Rim dia: 0.670"
Base: 0.568"
Neck: 0.552"
Rim thickness: 0.065"
Case body Length: 1.300"
Chamber OAL: 1.365"

Based upon this, it looks like the chamber may very well have been cut with a .50 Carbine reamer.  To make up for chamber slop and rim rim variation, I would say the OAL for the case would be 1.35" with a trim to length of 1.34". I have also come across references that Springfield Armory had developed both rimfire and centerfire versions of the .50 Carbine and .50-70 Gov't while experimenting what would be best for general issue. 

[ndnchf]

Another M1871!  Not many of us shooting these. I found mine to be very finicky about overall cartridge length. Plus or minus .005" and it won't feed. But when they are right, it works well. I was quite surprised how accurate it is too!

[fsrmg1]

Thanks Steve,

A good bit of information for when I start shopping for a bullet mould, I'll try to pick one without a crimping groove, so I can vary the length.  As I develop loads, I plan to chronograph my results to add to our Spencer resources and see how it compares with historical data.

Rich

[ndnchf]

FWIW - my load of 43.0gr Goex 2F and a Rapine 350 bullet averaged 1083 fps.

[ndnchf]

It's been a while since my model 1871 Springfield Spencer rifle got some range time. So today I took it out and made a short video. Check it out, and other antique firearms related videos on my YouTube channel.

[matt45]

VERY COOL!

[treebeard]

Really interesting rifles. Of the 1100 manufactured must not be that many around the country.

[ndnchf]

I see them show up on the usual internet sites occasionally. But there seems to be little interest in them. Everyone wants a Civil War Spencer, not these post war oddities. But me - I like the odd and unusual