Home made BP - will it blow up my gun? now with video!

[pintothegreat]

Hi, I need some advice. been shooting black powder for 6 months. I have 4 Ruger old armys a Pietta 38 and an Uberti 45.
Recently I have been making my own black powder. I have only tested my homemade BP on small mortars and in the open,
comparing to goex, pirodex, and tripple 7. All commercial products seem very slow and weak compared to my homemade stuff.
When burning the store bought stuff (new sealed packaging) you can watch it burn. When I light my home brew I cant get the
match away before poof it is gone. If i use the same amount of home made bp I have used in mortars with pirodex, the mortar
just explodes, (heavy cardboard tubing) where as pirodex gives me about 8 seconds lift with my potato projectile. Anyhoo, does
anyone have experience with very fast black powder?  I make it same as everyone in pyro forums. 75-15-10   potassium nitrate, exotic charcoal, sulfur. ball milled for 8 hours. corned and sifted to fff. Will this blow up my gun?

[Major 2]

[Coffinmaker]

Well I don't really know for sure.  I've only been shooting various Black Powders and Subs for about 10 years.  I have NEVER tried making my own.  It just didn't seem to be awfully ... um ... bright.  Over the years, most every manufacturer of Black Powder has blown a facility to smithereens.  I'm not one to be tempting Murphy.

Pirodex and 777 aren't black powder.  They just look black.  They are rapidly burning substitutes for gun powder and Pirodex is a rusting agent that just happens to burn.  Oh, yes, your original question still begs.  You might, you might not.  I would be kinda dumb to be holding on to it when you run the test dontcha think??  Your Call.

[Crow Choker]

Ditto's what Major 2 posted. Also as CM stated, the substitutes "ain't" blackpowder!

'pintothegreat'------I've yet to see in 48 years of shooting black powder firearms any "commercial" black powder that burned slow and didn't go "poooff" when touching it with a match or igniting it in a safer manner or fired properly in a firearm. Learned the hard way in the early years of blackpowder, ie. getting hair burned off of ones hand igniting the BP with a match, not something I'd recommend.

With blackpowder accessible and not that pricey, why risk damaging your firearms, more importantly your welfare or that of others in making the stuff. If you'd go back in the "archievee's" here on the forum, my first ever post told about as a young-un in college chemistry lab when two others and I made a small quantity of black powder in the lab-just messing around one spring afternoon. After several failed attempts to get good ignition, we came upon a good mix that when ignited went "poooff"! We just placed a small half teaspoon or so on the lab table and ignited it. Figured a bit more would be even more spectacular, we placed around a half cup or so on a lab table and  touched it off. (Touched off using a Bunsen burner hooked to a gas line-not good thinking, guess the term "Everyone has the right to be dumb and stupid once in yer life" applies here!).

The resulting flash and mushroom cloud that enveloped the lab area was spectacular, only thing was that at the same time the pile was ignited in walked the lab instructor. The gray haired, wearing round wire rimmed glasses instructor wearing a white lab coat exclaimed with authority "You damm fools, you won't have to wait for Jesus to come down to get you, you'll meet Him going up"!!!! The rest of our mix was confiscated and we were kicked out of the lab for the rest of the day. The classroom instructor exclaimed the next day to us something to the effect that he was glad to see us and that we were still breathing! Still recall that as if yesterday. That's what I always think of when guys mix and grind, making their own blackpowder.

IMO it ain't macho or old timey to produce yer own blackpowder, twenty-one years as a LEO, I saw plenty of incidents of those thinking something is neat or fun, turn to disaster. IMO if you've listened to other shooters who make their own BP or watched so-called "experts" on Utube and have said they've done so for years with no problem, well yesterday is gone, tomorrow is just right around the corner. As the old saying goes "Let the buyer beware", guess it applies to "Let the shooter beware" also. Just buy the stuff and stay safe!

[Yeso Bill]

It shouldn't blow up the gun unless you put too much in.   

Seriously, I wouldn't fool with those testers.  I'd get my hands on a stout muzzle loading rifle, like a TC 50 or 54 caliber, half load it with 40 or 50 grains under a loose patched ball and shoot it over a chronograph.  If you are a little leery about that, tie it to a tire with inner tube and torch it off with a 100 yard string on the trigger.  The FPS will tell the tale.

The old Lyman BP book says:
50 cal.; 498" - 180 gr. round ball, 26" barrel, 3f GoEx:
50 gr. - 1348 FPS MV
100 gr. - 1882 FPS MV
130 gr. - 2124 FPS MV  15,100 CUP

Those were patched with a .015" patch and were probably pretty tight with a 498 ball.   

I'd make triple sure that you have the right screen and its not finer than 3f.     

When you load the gun, make absolutely sure the ball is sitting on powder. 

I have never made any BP but think it would be a handy thing to know.  I shoot quite a bit of black in my 44-40 and I order it from Powder Inc. in Arkansas.  I have several muzzle loaders but haven't shot them in years.

Where did you get the mill, screen and ingredients?  Did you make your own charcoal?  What kind of wood?

I order a lot of books and one of the last ones was a How to make BP book.  I noticed that the author stated that the best place to make BP was on the furthest corner of the ranch. 

Billy

[pintothegreat]

Just wanted to say thanks for all the kind thoughtful replies. It would be just too easy to disregard my seemingly dumb questions. but you all have not. And be sure I have scoured the interwebs for such information, and let my humble thread be a beacon of light for the next weary traveler. and he will know that someone has been in his same shoes. Perhaps just the right person will reveal their special knowledge.
Anyway, all joking aside. I know all too much the dangers of fire and explosions. I am as safe with this stuff as I can muster. That's why I didn't just throw it in the percussion pistol and fire it. I went to a place where knowledgeable people might congregate before I did something really stupid. However the allure of making my own real black especially during "these trying times" was too strong. and if I were really smart and safe I wouldn't be shooting guns to begin with, I would be a sheep watching tic tok or sum such. But in fact I am an teenager trapped in an old mans body with time and money and a dang 'ol interwebs connection. Along with learning the intricacies of shooting cap and ball revolvers and making black powder I haven't overlooked the safety, but have embraced it as part of the game.
I do love that you all care about my and others safety and give the good sound advice, and I absorb it all. and I am not at all being defensive, when I clarify some details.
I do know about having no air space in the chambers, I have my Sears brand ball mill on a long extension cord. I sift powders for three F between a 25 mesh screen and a 50 mesh. I make my own charcoal in a retort. I use eucalyptus wood that has been rotted until it is light as balsa wood. I started with alder wood, then pine, then cottonwood, and finally to rotted eucalyptus.
As to commercial black powder and its lowly substitutes for sure they all go "poooff" but some home made BP goes "whup" in a way that makes ya go Hunh?

[Abilene]

I have had my face and arms on fire (gasoline) about 40 years ago, so am particularly careful ever since.

I am among those that would rather just buy it, but then if someday crazy (crazier) people get in charge and outlaw sales of BP, then, who knows...?

[pintothegreat]

Exactly Abiline,    "but then if someday crazy (crazier) people get in charge and outlaw sales of BP, then, who knows...?"
I learned all this during the "pandemic" and I live in the dreaded California , lines down the block and things sold out at the sporting goods store. all ammo like products have a ffl requirement now and a wait and they are just not available. and it did seem like the shit was hitting the fan etc. and possible NEW regulations. it seemed very important to be self sufficient.

[Jeremiah Jones]

Get a single shot rifle, sand bagged down, aiming at 3-4 pine boards:
1st use commercial BP (Also as CM stated, the substitutes "ain't" black powder!).

New boards, load your home brew, stick a long fuse in the touch hole.

Compare damage between the two sets of boards.  Let us know the results.  I've been looking at a BP formula that uses chicken um' poop.

[pintothegreat]

777 left, home made on right.  seem like two different animals.

[greyhawk]

Just wanted to say thanks for all the kind thoughtful replies. It would be just too easy to disregard my seemingly dumb questions. but you all have not. And be sure I have scoured the interwebs for such information, and let my humble thread be a beacon of light for the next weary traveler. and he will know that someone has been in his same shoes. Perhaps just the right person will reveal their special knowledge.
Anyway, all joking aside. I know all too much the dangers of fire and explosions. I am as safe with this stuff as I can muster. That's why I didn't just throw it in the percussion pistol and fire it. I went to a place where knowledgeable people might congregate before I did something really stupid. However the allure of making my own real black especially during "these trying times" was too strong. and if I were really smart and safe I wouldn't be shooting guns to begin with, I would be a sheep watching tic tok or sum such. But in fact I am an teenager trapped in an old mans body with time and money and a dang 'ol interwebs connection. Along with learning the intricacies of shooting cap and ball revolvers and making black powder I haven't overlooked the safety, but have embraced it as part of the game.
I do love that you all care about my and others safety and give the good sound advice, and I absorb it all. and I am not at all being defensive, when I clarify some details.
I do know about having no air space in the chambers, I have my Sears brand ball mill on a long extension cord. I sift powders for three F between a 25 mesh screen and a 50 mesh. I make my own charcoal in a retort. I use eucalyptus wood that has been rotted until it is light as balsa wood. I started with alder wood, then pine, then cottonwood, and finally to rotted eucalyptus.
As to commercial black powder and its lowly substitutes for sure they all go "poooff" but some home made BP goes "whup" in a way that makes ya go Hunh?

Very interesting -----dont suppose you know what variety of rotted eucalyptus it was you used for your charcoal? 

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings Pinto and Friends

I am going to chime in if only for a glimpse into history and safety.

testing powder by setting a match to it is both unreliable and not recommendable. "poof time" does not provide good data, and
unless it is done remotely on a really safe test bed, with protective walls ( ie: test bunker) an accident is inevitable.
Best case is burnt hair, worst case a trip to the ER.

At the VERY LEAST set yourself up with a safe test bed, thick walls to hide behind, and use fuse or electric igniters.
Also, NOT in a neighborhood backyard.

Also, I pray to god you are not milling this in a neighborhood back yard!

Historic "safe - ish" powder testers include the powder testing mortar at Historic Ft Snelling, MN.
the "height a shot is thrown from a test mortar" was one of the most common military tests of powder.
The flagpole at  is calibrated for use with the powder testing mortar and a known weight ball.

Hand held replicas like the Dixie Gunworks flintlock tester are NOT safe. If for any reason
your mix "gets out of hand" ( if for example, you deliberately or accidently introduce one of many
common "adulterants" that may act as an accelerant) you could blow off your hand.

As others have already pointed out, Pyrodex, 777, etc are not the same as Blackpowder, and show different burn rate characteristics,
both "open pile" and "compressed in a chamber"

> I make it same as everyone in pyro forums. 75-15-10   potassium nitrate, exotic charcoal, sulfur.
> ball milled for 8 hours. corned and sifted to fff.

What you describe is called "green powder", and is subject to settling, which changes it's burn rate.
For a decent product, one needs to wet, compress into a puck, dry, and grate the puck.
That step involves a lot more work and equipment and further risk.


> If i use the same amount of home made bp I have used in mortars with pirodex, the mortar
> just explodes, (heavy cardboard tubing) where as pirodex gives me about 8 seconds lift with my potato > projectile.

If you are using a cardboard mortar, are you at all familiar with fireworks, mortars, and shells?
How well versed are you in the chemistry?

> "the mortar just explodes"
do you mean explodes as in "disintegrates" ?
that is not a good sign, and suggest "way too fast" a burn rate.

Also, are you aware that "powder compression" will affect the burn rate?

Back when I was young and foolish, my buddies and I were heavy into model rocketry.
especially multi-stage, and attempting to achieve high altitude.

We foolishly decided to add home-made red-burning flare material to try to get a good visible night launch that would
let us see the trajectory. we built several, all the same.
One looked good, but did not last long.
One worked great, but almost started a grass fire on landing.
The last one (before we packed up and ran) exploded 15 feet off the launch pad.
VERY LARGE KABOOM. order of magnitude greater than an M-80.
paper confietti shrapnel spread over a 30 foot diameter, launchpad was flattened, but nobody hurt.
We were 50 feet away, using an electric wire-based launch system.

After a Discussion with our real rocket scientist advisor, he surmised we did not compress the
material properly, resulting in explosion rather than burn. (After that we stuck wih commercial
cardboard tube engines only).

Homemade BP can do the same.


> I have my Sears brand ball mill on a long extension cord.

Ok, since Sears DOES NOT MAKE a ball mill, what are you using? a rock tumbler, or ...
what do you use for "balls" in the mill? The only safe thing is usually  lead.

> I sift powders for three F between a 25 mesh screen and a 50 mesh.

If this is the green powder mix I think it is, when you sift it sorta changes the mix a bit.


>As to commercial black powder and its lowly substitutes for sure they all go "poooff" but some home made
>BP goes "whup" in a way that makes ya go Hunh?

That "whup" suggests a VERY FAST burn rate, which makes it suspect. This suggests Your powder is more
like the chinese flash/firecraker/fireworks powder than a good 3F BP, and it might not be safe to use.

BTW Any testing in a closed container  will explode rather than burn and turn your test vessel into
an improvised grenade.

I will post links to "The Mad Monks" writings about BP & etc, Bill Knight is a very knowledgable chemist who
consulted to the major BP manufacturors.

also sending you a PM

yhs
prof marvel

[Professor Marvel]

I wrote

What you describe is called "green powder", and is subject to settling, which changes it's burn rate.
For a decent product, one needs to wet, compress into a puck, dry, and grate the puck.

Greyhawk wrote

ERRRR..... he said corned and sifted to FFF? corned is puck pressed, dried, broken up , graded to size ? no?

Ah thanks grey hawk I missed that. damn migraine. I think (but cannot prove) that corning is dampening (usually with water)
and mild compresion. whereas best results are found with alcohol wetting and hydraulic compression. when dried the puck is
hard and when tapped it "rings".  But I've been wrong before......

I wrote

At the VERY LEAST set yourself up with a safe test bed, thick walls to hide behind, and use fuse or electric igniters.
Also, NOT in a neighborhood backyard.

Greyhawk wrote

Again its dose related - if the quantity is small - this is a public relations problem not a safety issue - if the test is involved half a pound of powder then the tester needs locking up (yesterday) for being stupid - the smoke cloud will scare a mob of people and attract unwanted attention. 

The problem is, if even 10 to 20 grains is set off in a carboard mortar, lifting a potato, that is a full pistol chamber load.
So... again, advising sort of a small bunker containment ( like a 3 ft deep hole) and not in the burbs.

At this point, I am going to lock the thread.

On "CAS ReLoading" We discuss loading and reloading, in safe and sane manners.

We do not discuss the manufacture of explosive materials.

Prof Marvel

[Professor Marvel]

For Informational Purposes

here a thread about how to access The Mad Monks BP files, he is a great chemist!
https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=63465.0

here are 2  BP making threadson another forum  from folks who know what they are doing
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103852-My-homemade-black-powder
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?131827-BP-making-components-from-the-BP-making-thread

good luck and stay safe
Prof Marvel